I have a few questions to ask...
Number one being, Is there anyone out there on this board that doesnt live on the east or the west coast but in the midwest specifically MO? The second one being, If so is there something you know that I dont know?
As a medieval re-enacter for 5 years I have been playing in the SCA and have not been to terribly satisfied with the organzation's combat and fighter mentality. Are there other groups besides the SCA here in Mo? Is there something better? I am specifically looking for a group that will allow me to wear my full suit of plate without my dream being compromised left and right. If anyone knows something please tell me.

We're in Southwest Kansas if that helps. So please do drop by if you're ever in the neighborhood and we'll feast, drink, and hit each other with rattan!

We're a very small/struggling/fledgling shire pretty much on the Calontir/Outlands border. I think the reason we all chose SCA is simply convenience. We can have huge license with choosing a time and locale for a persona and events and fellow members are common, making it easy to find something to do!

I do agree that there are a lot of folks with a serious case of uptightness when it somes to the historical reinactment community. I am inclined to think that's not just limited to the SCA. I tend to just shrug it off and remind myself that "We're doing this for fun. And anything worth for fun is worth having fun while we're doing it!"

And since we have so much fun, that makes the uptight folks even more crabby.. which is a reward all in itself!

If you don't mind me asking, what IS your dream & how is it being compromised? Perhaps it's being compromised by people who just want to have fun & don't care about history or even mock those who do?

Reenactors DO have serious uptightness about many things, as our brand of fun is meeting the challenge of recreating something to the highest attainable degree of accuracy, rather than playing dress-up in plastic & polyester & hitting people with sticks. That's for discussion on other forums.

PS. I'm likely to edit or delete this post in the morning - after coffee when I'm feeling less crabby.

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Coffee hasn't kicked in yet...

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Thanks for listening,

Not flaming you in the least bit. You certainly don't deserve ANY heat for wanting to better your kit and wanting to learn how to make accurate armor. There is a lack of good armorers out there and those good ones command good prices and have waiting lists. They also work hard at their craft and don't get rich doing it...

My ire and sarcasm are directed at the small-minded and petty ones who seem to be disillusioning you.

Get out from under the rock, speak out, do what YOU want, and scr$w the jerks who sneer at you for wanting to excel!

[ 07-20-2002: Message edited by: Jeff Johnson ]

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It's perfectly possible to fight in the SCA in authentic medieval armor, even plate. No, a man wearing full Maxamilian probably isn't going to win a crown tournament, but I'll bet I could design an accurate harness in which you *could*, as long as the armor was very, very well made. One of the members of the Company of St. Michael earned an SCA knighthood fighting *only* in a full white harness from Robert MacPherson, and another won knighthood in a very nice suit of full English plate (full plate legs, full plate arms, the arms completely enclosed his arms, full pauldrons, a globose-breasted CoP and a Pembridge helmet). I was knighted before I was able to get a full suit of plate, but I routinely beat other SCA knights in my full plate harness. So it *can* be done.

The problem, of course, is that most amor *isn't* well made, and that gives people a false sense of what can be done. Most armorers make their armor much too heavy, for one thing, especially in the limbs. For another, plate armor has to be shaped *exactly* right in order to function correctly, it has to be fit *perfectly*, and it has to be made *superbly* (articulations, metal-to-metal connections, etc.). The *vast* majority of armorers can't do any one of those things, let alone all of them, so, unless you have a really amazing harness you're going to have trouble. Personally, there are only three armorers I know from whom I'd buy plate armor (although there are one or two more who seem promising, it's just that I haven't seen any of their work). Most armorers who are trying to make authentic armor don't *care* enugh about both the form and function of their armor.

For the weight factor I mentioned above, look at the work now being done in hardened springs steel. Spring allows armorers to make limb armor and gauntlets of an accurate weight. Mac made my new vambraces out of spring and they weigh *less* than the plastic arm harnesses some of my friends wear, and yet they're as durable as 14-gauge steel. (NB: I'm not claiming all medieval armor was hardened; I'm saying that to make limb armor as thin as it was in period you have to make it hard or else it will get trashed too fast.) My new leg harness (plate cuisses, closed greaves and sabatons) weigh less than some people's *cuisses*!

But there are lots of other events where a good harness, even an overly-heavy one, will be OK: Come to one of the St. Michael passages of arms. At the risk of sounding like an ego-maniac, I sincerely doubt you'll find combat like that anywhere else, and many of the harnesses are superb. Four of our principals are wearing suits of Mac plate, and all the rest are trying hard (although *all* of us fail--it's a journey, not a destination), and some of the comers who show up to fight us are just doing a wonderful job. In addition, we fight with a completely different combat system more geared to fighting in late-period harnesses (no kneeling, we encourage two-handed weapons, etc.). If you're interested, let me know and I'll try to put you in touch with Tourney Company people out your way, and I hope to see you at one of our passages of arms soon.

In short, don't give up on the SCA. The fighting can be the best around, you just have to look in the right places. Moreover, it's not right to say "this isn't what I want, I'm leaving" (though god knows I've been tempted to!); instead, stay on the inside and try to fix things. We *are* making a difference; just look at the number of tournament companies that have sprung up, and look at the rule changes the SCA has made because of us (our group has even been provisionally authorized to experiment with limited grappling!).

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Originally posted by Hugh Knight:
OK, I'm probably going to get nuked for saying this, but here goes:

It's perfectly possible to fight in the SCA in authentic medieval armor...

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I don't think you'll get "nuked" here but please keep this in mind (from the "Welome to Firestryker):

"While participation from members of the Society for Creative Anachronisms (SCA) is welcome, this is not an SCA site and we do not discuss SCA specific heraldry, peerage, combat, armour, or events (unless there is a 'true' living history presence there), there are plenty of other boards and locations that address these topics and we will be happy to point you in the right direction".

I read and post to this forum because I don't have to wade through SCA specific posts and replies. Likewise, when I ask a question, I know folks here will post replies from a real living history perspective, not a scadian one. Can we please keep it that way?

Thanks

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Originally posted by Matt Anderson:
I don't think you'll get "nuked" here but please keep this in mind (from the "Welome to Firestryker):

"While participation from members of the Society for Creative Anachronisms (SCA) is welcome, this is not an SCA site and we do not discuss SCA specific heraldry, peerage, combat, armour, or events (unless there is a 'true' living history presence there), there are plenty of other boards and locations that address these topics and we will be happy to point you in the right direction".

I read and post to this forum because I don't have to wade through SCA specific posts and replies. Likewise, when I ask a question, I know folks here will post replies from a real living history perspective, not a scadian one. Can we please keep it that way?

Thanks

[ 07-20-2002: Message edited by: Matt Anderson ]

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See, Matt, that's just what I was trying to do: Help this individual make the SCA a living history organization. In other words, my post *was* about exactly what you ask for. Nothing I said involved the compromises people dislike so much about the SCA. It was *only* about doing things in the SCA at a living history level.

See, there's that line about:
"(unless there is a 'true' living history presence there)"

All I was trying to do was help bring about a true living history presence there. Now, can you tell me whay that was wrong? Or why you chose to attack this post instead of some of the other recent ones on the same level?

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Rule of thumb on this board is that "Living history" groups recreate as accurately as possible a very specific time and place in Earth's history (1471 Maastricht, 1467 Burgundy). Groups based in a fantasy geographical place (The Kingdom of Ansteorra, The Kingdom of Terra Neuve, The Kingdom of Mykfahlyn, etc.) are not "Living History" groups.

Another guideline is that living history groups use steel weapons in combat and neither use or condones the use of non- historical weapons (rattan covered with duct tape, PVC with a foam overlay, etc)

As a moderator, I'm going to have to ask you all to refrain from discussing the SCA here. Franklin, if you think you can help Ben, I invite you to email him off board, or send him a personal invitation to the Armour Archive. Hugh, noone is trying to start a fight with you, please don't look for a fight here. If you'd like to work with Ben to get a living history presence started in the SCA, that's a fine and noble endeavor and I invite you to discuss it with him off this board. Both of you can find Ben's email address in his profile, as I just looked and it's there.

Ben, if you want to find a 14th or 15th C living history group in your area, or start one of your own, this is the place to make general inquiries, but we really can't help you with your frustrations with the SCA. Perhaps you could work with Franklin or Hugh off board to resolve some of the issues you're facing.

As I see it, Ben has asked 4 very specific questions:

Is there anyone out there on this board that doesnt live on the east or the west coast but in the midwest specifically MO?
Is there someone on this board who lives in MO? (Yes or no)

is there something you know that I dont know?
Since the accumulated knowledge of the various people on this board is staggering, I would say there's lots we know that you may not. I suggest you think about what you want to know and ask specific questions. "What do you know?" is entirely too broad a question to warrant any sort of useable answer.

Are there other groups besides the SCA here in Mo?
This is a fairly straightforward questions- are there any historical group other than the SCA active in MO?

Is there something better?
"Better" is relative. You might consider a Renaissance or Fantasy Fair that allowed you to wear your armour but made no other demands on you to be "better". I suggest you determine what your ideal group would be and ask a more specific question regarding groups' requirements for participation.

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Originally posted by Ginevra:
I'm with Matt et al on this one- we're not here to address how or why to make the SCA a better place, or decide if it is or is not a "Living History group".

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Gwen, I certainly wasn't looking for a fight (nor did I use any aggressive words), I was merely going by the conversation you participated in on another thread in which you discussed appropriate clothing for an SCA ceremony. I figured that since you participated in that, it must mean that attempts to make the SCA more authentic (as long as we didn't talk about things like basket hilts and other gross anachronisms) were at least fair game for discussion. Since that's not the case, I clearly misunderstood why it was OK to have that other thread, and I will avoid discussing that organization in the future.

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Ben, I don't think you offended anyone. Some people just need to have their coffee before they respond.

We have struck on a gray area in the FS rule set: when is mention/discussion of the Society too much? When an entire thread seems dedicated to the subject. I am in agreement with Gwen and Matt.

It was legit to ask if there were any groups in a specific area that might meet Ben's needs. There are authenticity minded folks in all organizations and I have no problems with people offering their groups and saying "I think we can meet your needs--come for a visit".

A lot of people don't tend to discuss how to make the society more authentic and I don't think that is what Ben is asking. If the groups that respond to him are SCA and they have a higher bar and have fun doing it, then there is no problem, but if it continues to be more of a society discussion then it should continue as an exchange of ideas off-board.

The topic of white for Investiture garments was an interesting one as it was couched in a historical context and pretty much ended in one. While the topic swirled around a ceremony that was SCA, Sean wanted to know if there was a historical precedent for white or some other color. I would say that most of the thread was non-society/historical context backed up with discussions for why or why not. Those who are or were in the society discussed briefly the caveats of going against the "accepted" traditions, but offered how to make it more historical without offending the powers that be. It was a desire to create a historical snapshot within the society. Very cool. (I hope Sean will share pics.)

There are differences, though subtle, between the two threads. Gwen's conversation on the topic of white was to create a more authentic experience for Sean for his ceremony, not to change the way of the society.

It seems to be "how" one asks the question and what the returns are for answers.

Did I give that impression? It certainly was not my intent as I thought I had covered that by saying

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...not to change the way of the society.

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Originally posted by Fire Stryker:
We have struck on a gray area in the FS rule set: when is mention/discussion of the Society too much? When an entire thread seems dedicated to the subject. I am in agreement with Gwen and Matt.

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Then I'm confused as to the way in which I erred: The entire thread wasn't SCA, I only made one post about it.

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It was legit to ask if there were any groups in a specific area that might meet Ben's needs. There are authenticity minded folks in all organizations and I have no problems with people offering their groups and saying "I think we can meet your needs--come for a visit".

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Again, that's precisely what I did: I told Ben it was possible to fight successfully in his full plate if he came to the right people.

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The topic of white for Investiture garments was an interesting one as it was couched in a historical context and pretty much ended in one. While the topic swirled around a ceremony that was SCA, Sean wanted to know if there was a historical precedent for white or some other color. I would say that most of the thread was non-society/historical context backed up with discussions for why or why not. Those who are or were in the society discussed briefly the caveats of going against the "accepted" traditions, but offered how to make it more historical without offending the powers that be. It was a desire to create a historical snapshot within the society. Very cool. (I hope Sean will share pics.)

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Again, this is confusing to me because I felt I was attempting to do exactly the same thing: I never spoke of any standard SCA conventions, all I did was to say that a.) it was possible to fight well in good plate, that b.) a lot of the problems people have in fighting in plate is that their plate isn't good (and gave some examples of problems), c.) told him where he could find a more authentic experience in which to fight in plate, and d.) urged him to try this before dumping the SCA all together. In other words, I was helping Ben see a way to get a more authentic experience. Frankly, the issues of armor fit and function seem to me to be very relevant historically.

Moreover, the "White" thread seemed more SCAdian in focus snce it was focused largely on SCA custom rather than medieval reality (except when Sean talked about the clothing he'd be wearing for the ceremony itself). But Gwen spent a lot of time just talking about why not doing what the SCAdians expect is bad and will cost you awards--a discussion purely SCA in focus with no historical relevence.

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There are differences, though subtle, between the two threads. Gwen's conversation on the topic of white was to create a more authentic experience for Sean for his ceremony, not to change the way of the society.

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And my posts was intended to help Ben find a more authentic experience within the society, too. Yes, I did say that by doing this sort of thing Ben could help improve the SCA, but why is that, by itself, a negative? Why is it wrong to talk about ways to improve the authenticity of a group?

Forgive me, but what this *sounds* like, is that it's OK to discuss historical activities within the SCA as long as one is *critical* of the SCA, but not so long as one is trying to make things better. I hope that's not what I'm hearing, and am looking forward to seeing how I misudnerstand what you and Gwen have written.

Please feel free to reply off-line to hughk1066@juno.com if you would prefer not to take up bandwidth on this conversation.

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Originally posted by Ginevra:
Jenn, it is also important to note that both Sean and Anne Marie understand and accept that the SCA is NOT a living history group. Answers to their queries are made in the spirit of improving individual experiences, NOT trying to improve the SCA in general.

Gwen

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Gwen, I'm not clear on why it's OK to help people improve an "individual experience" and not the whole group.

Again, to save others from having to read about this subject, you may contact me off line if you wish.

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-Read a bunch, research, etc and save up for plane tickets to a few major events a year. This is what Brent does, I believe.

-Do your own thing, and just show up to RenFairs, SCA/Adria events, etc. Realize that you aren't doing what they do, and don't expect them to fall all over themselves trying to join up with you. Also expect a lot of nonsensical advice. Your continual outside research/reading should be able to help you spot the cool/informed people. Warning- as with any social group, it's easy to start falling into the norm and wanting to conform, get involved with fantasy politics, etc. How you deal with that pressure is up to you. I'd recommend ignore it or leave the group(s).

-Join such groups wholeheartedly and try to change the group. I have mixed feelings about that- I'm currently trying to set up a real Elizabethan prizefighting tourney in Adria, so I won't pretend I'm above such things. BUT, really, who am I to walk into somebody else's club and try to change it to suit my purposes? You'll also discover, as I am right now, that even if you can do everything you want to, you still can't enforce a Living History standard. Not even close.

-Form your own group. Good idea, but requires expertise, sweat, perseverance, etc. Probably the biggest problem is finding like-minded people. Recruits from fantasy/medievilish groups frequently have preconceptions based on their time there. They may also have been the big expert in the small pond too long.

-A solution nobody has discussed here is to simply give up on the LH idea for now. It's what I did for about a decade, and really it's better than frustration. There's plenty of historical activities out there- personally, I immersed myself in early music. There's also non-reenactment Western Martial Art groups and conventions, historic dance groups, historical brewers in the American Homebrew Association, etc. The level of expertise in these groups is astonishing. I mean, there are guys with Doctorates in Early Music. Eventually, you may even meet people who do full on reenactment- I got involved in RedCo through a vocalist/psaltry player in my medieval music quartet.

Best of luck to you!

BTW, Peder, just for the record, that was a gallon of SMALL beer a day. Jeez, you don't want people to think RedCo is filled with besotten college students who fall asleep after a few drafts of hippocras and flash everyone with their OOP underwear....

[ 07-22-2002: Message edited by: David Parish-Whittaker ]

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Originally posted by David Parish-Whittaker:

BTW, Peder, just for the record, that was a gallon of SMALL beer a day. Jeez, you don't want people to think RedCo is filled with besotten college students who fall asleep after a few drafts of hippocras and flash everyone with their OOP underwear.... [ 07-22-2002: Message edited by: David Parish-Whittaker ]

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no, I'm afraid thats MY group...*sigh*....

--Anne-Marie, feeling rather underwelmed some days....

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students who fall asleep after a few drafts of hippocras and flash everyone with their OOP underwear.... [ 07-22-2002: Message edited by: David Parish-Whittaker ]
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no, I'm afraid thats MY group...*sigh*....

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Well, now I know what group I'm going to guest reenact with next...

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If you are still around, I would like to know what (if anything) you have found out about LH groups in the "Mid America" area.

I am in Nashville, and I'm (most) interested in 14th or 15th century.

What period and geographic location is your existing kit from?

Everyone,
Just found this forum - looks very interesting. Supposing that Ben or I or others were interested in trying to put together a group, where is the right place to look. I was thinking of history departments - grad students, faculty...

Recruitment of members can come from the most bizarre places. One of our members, who had a serious interest in history, happened to meet up with Chef in a hobby store.

Other members we acquired were long standing friends and some met us through the local museum during our show. Some came to us through our web presence.

You can try the local university history departments but if you try this approach you need eye candy and a goal so that you can generate interest.

If it were me, I would pick a time, put a kit together that was the best I could obtain at the time with the notion that it is a work in progress. Then go and participate with a group, if you can find one in your area (or travel: Chef and I flew out to the west coast for our first event), or just use it as a photo op and put your flyer together for the local history department.

Cheers,

Jenn

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I had been posting LH questions on Sword Forum and got some response, but the discussion here seems to have a different bent. For one thing, I got no LH responses from women there (that I recall). Not that there are not women on SFI - but it seems like interest in LH and swords don't intersect as much for women (sorry for the sweeping generalization, and for being off topic).

I notice that there is a medieval historian on the faculty here at Vandebilt - maybe I will see if he is at all interested or knows those that are.

Why do you think eye candy would be necessary - seems like people who study history would be interested imediately.
But then I have yet to talk with any.

Thanks again -

Actually, I have a love of swords and the more martial aspects of medieval history. I have been known to practice Fiori on occasion, though recently it has been on the rare side.

The general consensus in the LH side of the house is that women don't fight as it is not the medieval norm. Some of us do, but it is a hotly debated topic as to whether we should be allowed to take to the field. Different groups have different rules that apply to the gender bending aspect. You will note the ARMET forum on this board was to discuss more broad based rules for group interaction.

Sorry, I digress...

As far as eye candy, I am not suggesting a full multimedia production. Sometimes people will jump on at the ground level with no tangibles, but you definitely need to know what you want and where you are going to avoid the frustration factor of a startup.

It has been my experience (your milage may vary) that people generally respond better if there is something to look at. Sometimes people like to see how far along you are or whether you are in the larval stage of the group forming. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.

Jenn

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Thanks!