[ 08-08-2001: Message edited by: Seigneur de Leon ]

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My own feeling is that a lot more experimentation will have to happen before any such widespread community standards can be adopted (if this would even be wise), and given the provisional state of affairs, I think it is hardly surprising that such standards as you will encounter at present are fluid and inconsistent. I welcome such inconsistency, and I certainly prefer it to the consistency of a single controlling authority.

It seems to me, and this is my opinion, that authenticity wise, it all comes down to the group (not ARMET) level standard, the group mission (what a group does: LH/RE/HI/E), and one's personal goals and level of authenticity. Another question might be, how long has the group been in existence? This can dictate why some groups have really high bars for entry level. They also tend to have loaner gear for members testing it out.

I think the thing to keep in mind here is that any historically minded medieval group in the US is basically trail-blazing. They have seen or experienced what the more established groups in Europe have done and have liked it. To say that there are compromises, well yes, but you have to take the groups individually and see what their standards are and why there might be a compromise.

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I, too, was at first intimidated by the high level of authenticity espoused by many of the writers to this board, as I saw that it required a great deal of time, effort, and money to cleave to such standards. In getting to know some of the people, though, I see that there are many different levels of commitment, and that EFFORTS towards authenticity are what are most appreciated.

In that vein, a person who makes a brigandine with commercially galvanized steel plates from Home Depot, but shapes them and attaches them appropriately, and makes an effort at a correct pattern and fabric, would have their work considered "acceptable", though not the "ideal" for an up-close, inside-and-out inspection. Probably their brig would not be used to teach the public about 15th C. armor construction, though it could be, if the proper caveats were included in the presentation.

Similarly, somebody who turns up at a 15th C. LH event in a coat of plates made of naugahide and plastic scales would be asked to maybe participate in a manner which did not require period armor. Or they might be offered help in planning a more authentic harness, or might even be given a chance to borrow a harness to get a feel for what they should be aiming for. By and large, I have found the folks on this Board to be both encouraging of others' attempts at proper kit -- they've all "been there themselves" -- while being supportive of peoples efforts which may still fall somewhat short of a mark. I don't think there is anybody out there who is the "Marshal Of Proper Attire", and I hope there never is one.

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Current Status: Demonstration/Historical Interpretation/Presentation

Goal: Actual Living History (we don't have a camp of our own yet, but we pass muster on other levels)

When hosted by other groups we are: LH/Re-enactment

In Wolfe Argent this is what is allowed: Our bar is moderately high, but we are not out to bankrupt our members. They ask if certain manufacturers or items are acceptable and we will check it out. IF it passes the minimum, the vendor/craftsperson is approved.

Armour: Mild Steel, period rust retardant finishes (Russet, Bluing, blacked, painted) High carbon. No stainless (this is a group choice). Members get rust on their armour all the time but it is not impossible to maintain.

Based on extant designs or composites based on actual stylistic aspects in a geographic location.

Helmets: Raised or welded, but must have the proper shape, can be a historically inspired reproduction from period source material.

Linen or Wool for clothing: we do not make our own cloth or have access to that which might be more historically accurate (I also don't think everyone can afford 100% pure silk velvet on some armour coverings at $1200/yard!). We utilize that which gives the proper 'impression'. If asked, we will fess up about while the clothing is of a proper design, the thread count or wool is not historically "correct". We allow machine stitching on hidden seams (our goal is to hand stitch, but we aren't going to demand that from new comers), but those presented to the public must be handfinished.

Clothing styles, if someone is going for a specific ethnic group can reflect either their "native" country's fashion or the adopted fashion of the Burgundian influence. Much of this is based on images and statuary as extant examples are a bit scarce and the "Common Sense" dog don't hunt.

Shoes: hey they're out there.

Horses: bring what you have. We would prefer that horses not exceed 16h and try to discourage purebred drafts, but we do not exclude by breed if that is what the person has.

Tack: can be what you have to begin with, but eventually we would like to raise the bar to medievalesque and finally medieval reconstruction. If people haven't purchased tack yet, then we suggest investing in a medievalesque variety: Portugesa and Camargue. Endurance saddles with English leathers and no pommels. A McClellan conversion is a stop gap as long as it has been converted to something that is medievalesque. End goal: Reproduction of extants.

If you don't want it scratched by the armour, might I suggest a mochila cover. I think if you look closely at Albrecht Durer's "The Knight the Devil and Death", you will see a leather(or other type) cover. The steels of the saddle poke through. This should satisfy the aspect of not "scratching the hell" out of an expensive investment.

Headstalls: can be simple. Bob and I use currently: Eggbutt snaffles with a simple western headstall. Cheek, throat and brow bands. Again, use what you have, but we are looking to go "Full Presentation".

Stirrups: simple modern at the moment. We are looking for those that more closely resemble their medieval counterparts. The period example we are thinking of will address the "Safety issue" of studded boots and heels.

Weapons: extant examples and period artwork from the regions our members portray to select design. This is inclusive of swords, daggers, and all poleweapons and the various furniture that goes along with it.

Tentage: Period design tentage with proper size and pitch to appex or ridge. Hand painted based on period illustrations. We don't demand period paints (we also want the color to last).We are going for "Presentation". Fire retardent is fine. Safety is important. Tents and equipment are expensive and accidents will happen.

Camp equipment: Must be of proper design. We argue about bronze vs. cast iron. If it's modern/medievalesque, we have to look at it to see if it will pass what we are looking for. IF it is in your tent, we don't see it, we don't care. Open tents must have the proper gear.

Wolfe Argent is a work in progress.

[ 08-09-2001: Message edited by: Fire Stryker ]

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Set your own standards!

The only important standards are personal standards. If your personal standards are less than the group standards, and you need to have someone enforce them on you - find another group. Neither they, nor you will be happy with your participation.

If you are going to try to dictate standards to me - Your kit had better FAR exceed mine. Otherwise, I'll ignore you.

For materials, it's a question of what I consider a reasonable substitution, and how critical or visible the discrepency is.

In the aforementioned case of tent canvas, I consider sunforger cotton inauthentic, BUT, Linen is to expensive for a massive project for a tent and the only linen tents I've seen produced have had some serious maintenance and function issues. Around here, where almost every event is accompanied by rain, leaky linen is not good. The real dividing point is that no one comes into a reenactment camp to look at your tent material.

Most public reenactments around here are associated with museums, so aside from personal satisfaction in knowing that I'm doing my best at reaching the elusive goal of authenticity, I consider it to be an obligation to the hosts. Armor and weapons are very high-interest items. People come to reenactments to see weapons and armor. If they can tell it's stainless, it rather spoils the whole thing. OK, most people can't tell, but for those who can, you might as well carry a sword from the Noble collection. For me, those discriminating people who count for far more than the ignorant masses.

For ren-fair jousters & similar applications, maintenance is critical, you need to stay Fairy-Tale shiny, and intelligent people know that ren-fairs aren't places to find authenticity, so no one cares if it's stainless.

As for my kit, I'm satisfied with about half of it. If I'm ever COMPLETELY happy with it, my standards have sunk too low, & it'll be time to find a new recreational activity.

(Ramble Mode - OFF. Ready to receive fire!)

[ 08-08-2001: Message edited by: Jeff Johnson ]

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"In the aforementioned case of tent canvas, I consider sunforger cotton inauthentic, BUT, Linen is to expensive for a massive project for a tent and the only linen tents I've seen produced have had some serious maintenance and function issues. Around here, where almost every event is accompanied by rain, leaky linen is not good."

In England, in Regia Anglorium, they have a project going with 100% flax linen canvas, dyed but I've forgotten with what, and sealed with a mixture of linseed oil and beeswax. It isn't cost-effective to ship the linen here, but apparently linen can be done. I, however, already have tents of cotton duck canvas fireproofed etc... from Panther Primitives, but if you are interested, I can post the results of their experiments.

"Armor and weapons are very high-interest items. People come to reenactments to see weapons and armor."

I agree totally, everyone wants to "touch", it appears sensory information is far more important than knowledge.

"If they can tell it's stainless, it rather spoils the whole thing."

People ALWAYS ask me if my mild steel is stainless, as it ALWAYS shines like the bumper of a '57 Chevy at a car show. That's just me, though. I blame my hyperactive squire, Baldor.

"For ren-fair jousters & similar applications, maintenance is critical, you need to stay Fairy-Tale shiny, and intelligent people know that ren-fairs aren't places to find authenticity, so no one cares if it's stainless."

Exactly.

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"Helmets: Raised or welded, but must have the proper shape, can be a historically inspired reproduction from period source material."

Welded 16 guage, kinda sloppy welds but my polish job makes up for it, and it is historically originated.

"Linen or Wool for clothing: We utilize that which gives the proper 'impression'. If asked, we will fess up about while the clothing is of a proper design, the thread count or wool is not historically "correct". We allow machine stitching on hidden seams (our goal is to hand stitch, but we aren't going to demand that from new comers), but those presented to the public must be handfinished."

I buy mine from Hamilton Dry Goods, 100% wool, and handstitch everything because I don't know how to use Patty's sewing machine. My stitches are too large, however. I still need a pour point (which won't show in the pictures) but I'll ask about it in the post.

"Clothing styles, if someone is going for a specific ethnic group can reflect either their "native" country's fashion or the adopted fashion of the Burgundian influence. Much of this is based on images and statuary as extant examples are a bit scarce and the "Common Sense" dog don't hunt."

Kinda got the ignorance problem here, but I'll throw it out and see what you think.

"Shoes: hey they're out there."

I've got MRL boots that are a breeze to ride in, but my portrayal is of a foot soldier, and I will make proper turnshoes soon.

"Horses: bring what you have. We would prefer that horses not exceed 16h and try to discourage purebred drafts, but we do not exclude by breed if that is what the person has."

Oops, I have a 17.2 hand tall moose that's shed his antlers. Can't change him though. Love him more than I care about any of this, truth be told.

"Tack:"

Not on the agenda, although we can go over that later in equestrian.

"Stirrups:"

We will discuss this later in equestrian. This is something to go on about...

"Weapons:"

I'm Downtown on this. This was my original interest, and I've got an arsenal that won't quit.

"Tentage: Period design tentage with proper size and pitch to apex or ridge. Hand painted based on period illustrations. We don't demand period paints (we also want the color to last).We are going for "Presentation". Fire retardent is fine. Safety is important. Tents and equipment are expensive and accidents will happen."

Pretty much there on this, as well. We do have a new Byzantine onion dome that is begging for some religious writing on it. I've ordered the paint, but as of yet, no inspiration.

"Camp equipment: Must be of proper design. We argue about bronze vs. cast iron."

Hahahahah, I've a full set of cast iron "Lodge" cookware I NEVER take because it is bogus! Cast iron for kings, bronze for the rest. I've got information and the bronze, along with the Material Safety Data Sheets, which I would recommend to "keep the lead out" for a VIKING cauldron, but not a 14 - 15 C. one. I figured I'd ask about design after I successfully completed the "spangenhelm-riveted" cauldron.

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It is true that someone has to set their own personal standards. That said, every re-enactment group in every era portrayed that I have seen or heard of has a minimum standard for authentic equipment - no matter where the bar is set, there is a bar for the group. The only exceptions to this I have seen are groups that belong to 'fring' (meaning not heavily portrayed by real re-enactors - not the standard Medievally themed social clubs that abound) periods.

When you don't have a bar set, then you will eventually have something resembleing the SCA - the classic example of a group with no enforced minimum standard. The only place I have seen groups without a standard flourish, is in the Mid-Atlantic with people coming out of Markland, and these people usually are in fringe period groups. Markland had a lot to do with spawning re-enactment groups Medieval, Pirates, Vikings, etc - but the ACW, Revolutionary War, and F&I groups already existed, and as a general rule did not come out of that background. They do things a little differently, from what I have seen.

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Anyway, I see a problem with the term "standards" itself. It seems exclusionary to those who are outside the group or incoming. I'd much prefer that groups provided "Guidelines" or some sort of a "Code" or "Policy".

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jeff Johnson:
...I see a problem with the term "standards" itself. It seems exclusionary....

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A rose by any other name...

Any group seeking a degree of authenticity is exclusionary by nature. I find "standards" quite a neutral term. Whatever word you choose, how it is received depends entirely on how newcomers are treated.

I rejoice at any group with standards, having come from several "living history" groups claiming to want authenticity but in practice preferring sheer numbers to quality, and not wanting to hurt anyone's feelings.

[BTW hello, everyone]

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