Sorry for so many questions... but I appreciate the help!

Examples: Those portraying higher stations would have something like the ballock dagger with fancier hardware with the auxiliary byknives. Whereas someone of a lower station would have something more simple and perhaps more utility.

Speaking from 15thC perspective, you might have a more utilitarian basilard (swiss). Or you might have a rondel (a triangular spike on a handle) which seems to me to be more from France and northern Germany (I haven't found any yet credited to southern Germany). (FYI: A rondel is strictly a stabbing weapon.)

I'm doing an English archer. I am putting together both a mid-late 14th century kit (HYW) and a mid-late 15th century kit (WotR or Burgundy stuff). I'd eventually like to get my kit to household archer standard, so I'm trying to get quality pieces instead of something that will "do." Acquiring pieces very slowly, but heck, that's half the fun!

Using _Knives and Scabbards_ by the Museum of London ISBN 9-780851-158051 as a guide;

Yes I am going to generalize, for details read the book :-)

Handles are of two types: Whittle and Scale. Neither is an indication of quality. This is the age of cheap labour and expensive materials.

That means scabbards are highly decorated with punching and other marking methods. In the other thread, Jens posted a picture of what I would call an inaccurate sheath/scabbard. It is lightly decorated and has a modern 'frog' to attach it to a belt. Scabbards/sheaths had a cord lace through them to tie them to belts. Nothing in Knives and Scabbards (NS) is seen to have such a modern 'frog.' They were made with calf, cattle, sheep/goat and were more often than not lined. There is also evidence that most were made on a last. This produced a scabbard/sheath that knives were then bought for. There is evidence of the sheaths being cut to accomodate a larger knife than what they were made for.

This labour before material also means a cheap knife would be thin and liable to break easily. If you could afford it, you would have a stronger knife, more expensive (and better) materials, more expensive decorations like inlaid silver wire, etc.

KS has charts, lots of charts. Again I will generalize...

Rivets were solid and hollow, in silver, iron, brass.

Shoulder plates and end plates. No knife in KS is complete without such trappings. They were made in brass, copper, gunmetal, silver, tin.

Blades were marked by the maker, sometimes more than once. These marks were sometimes inlayed. If two marks, one could be inlayed and the other not. This was done with E-M14c tin, brass, or L14c tin, copper, brass, gunmetal.

Knife handles chart is too hard to sum up, so I will list materials used,
bone, copper, brass, horn, tin, alder, beech, birch , box, holly, maple, oak, willow/poplar, yew, pomoideae.

Blade decoration used pattern welding, overlaid wire, inset disks, groove and groove with decorated backs.

Blades were double edged, single edged and pointed or blunt depending on the use. They were sharp for the full length of the cutting edge, there were no riccassos. Knives are named after their handles, so a Roundel dagger can have a single or double edge to it. Same goes for a Baselard. A whittle (thwitle) refers to a simple knife blade that the tang passes through a solid piece of handle and is peened over on the end cap.

Finally whittle vs scale handles. From the 12thc to the L13thc it is whittle tangs. Early-M14thc only 8% are Scale tang. L14thc has 33% scale and E15thc 66% is scale.

What this means is a rich knight of the early 14thc would be proud to have a whittle tang knife. It will be richly inlaid as he could afford the silver wire. The blade and tang would be stout high quality metal. His sheath would be highly decorated (stamping, incision, painting and guilding).

There were folding knives and scissors.

[ 01-28-2004: Message edited by: Woodcrafter ]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Woodcrafter:
Friedrich, could you show an example of a triangular blade?

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This would be better answered by Chef actually. He has a DT dagger that he could offer a better opinion on. I would be glad to take a picture of it but I won't see him till our next Higgins presentation on the 7th.

What made me wonder is the fact, that this weapon, mostly indiscriminately dubbed "ballock dagger", on many surviving specimens either was a one-edged knife to probably serve for "civilian activities" as well.

I“d interpret this thing not purely as a weapon, but also as a handy "multi purpose tool" and last, but not least as a costume acessory.

It might well be that this pattern besides stabbing was intended merely for "bonus" cutting purposes in close quarters, but I have the tendency to consider things "the civilian way" first (which might be completely wrong as well).

But again- as far as I know, "ballock daggers" came in an lot of different fashions.
Straight-sided and double edged,
Triangular tapering and single edged,
"Drop-point" and single edged,
and many a variation with a short edge on the back of the tip of the blade.

As far as I am informed, most of the original pieces had whittle tangs and if not a metal pommel plate, then at least they had some sort of washer or cap made of sheeting to peen the end of the tang.

If I had to give any advice as to "Which type should I buy/manufacture", I“d recommend "finding a suitable extant specimen and copying it".
There“s mostly flaws to the ones one can buy off-the-peg, and if you catch an example that hasn“t, it“s the one everybody else has;o)

Regards

Ivo

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ballock daggers on the Mary Rose

On the right hand side of the page is a link to a short paper on the Mary Rose ballock daggers. It's a tad out of period, but she seems to suggest that they are consistent with known medieval examples.

Lots of good details... unfortunately, no pictures, but the best stuff I've been able to find so far.

But the armour and such on this brass seems a bit too avanced for 1332. And this is also argued in the chapter (pages 87-92) on this effigy in this book:

Caster, Etienne van & Roland op de Beeck (1981), De Grafkunst in Belgisch Limburg: Vloerzerken en -platen met persoonsvoorstellingen (13e tot 17e eeuw).
Maaslandse Monografieėn No. 4. Assen: Van Gorcum. ISBN: 90-232-1812-4.

Here Page 92 even tells us a date of 1393 is most probable and that other people have suggested it be dated to 1375, 1380 or even a few years before 1398. But at least not 1332.

[ 01-30-2004: Message edited by: Herman ]

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Still, the Lutrell Psalter gives an early 14th c. ballock dagger.

Thanks for the catch.

I agree with Herman, that brass is not 1332 for armour style. Bollock knives are lathe turned handles and therefor whittle-tang knife by definition.

I don't believe 14/15thc people had our stamped out manufacturing outlook. That is to say a knife was not termed military or civilian. It was just a knife to be used for whatever. We think of going to war and being issued a bayonet. This assures the military a set standard of quality. Yet we have references of 15thc ordinances stating how well Jacks are to be made (number of layers of cloth). So it is an indication that people were showing up with insufficient quality kit. Further more there are surviving examples of bollock daggers worn with armour and with civilian attire.

A twist on this to modern times. You are called to war today by your local justice of the peace (or whatever government official). Wearing what you have on now, you buy a flack vest (not a certain brand), find your best knife and rifle and report for duty. To me that is how a medieval army was called up. There was no TV's pre-concieved idea as to how they were supposed to look. Once at the assembly point, you are detailed off into being a sapper or sniper depending on what equipment you brought. But that is just my take on how medieval man thought about his weapons.

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And do not forget the livery stuff. Armies supplied their soldiers with equipment and clothing, so that they have the basic necessities they need to do a good job.

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Thanks for all your input.

I do have one problem though.... In digging through all the pictures I could find, at least a couple of ballock daggers seem to be full tang construction, with the tang peened over a pommel cap on the end of the grip. I have some pics, but no convenient place to post them yet.

don't be so sure.

In the literal sense of stamped out there are many many examples of mass production.
Stamps on:
leather
panel paintings
metal

Die cut dags on hoods
Devices stamp cut out of paper and parchement
Printed matter in the second quarter of the fifteenth century.

But in a less literal way production standards and standardising was there. There were strict controls on quality and measurements. And also in certain times of crisis certain 'standard' items were commissioned.

I knwo what you are getting at but do not forget that the late middle ages saw the first movements of industrialised processes. You only have to look at the wool and dyeing industries to see that.

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A Ballock dagger has a look. The look is of a turned handle in the whittle-tang style. If the tang only goes half way through, or all the way through and peens over, it still retains the fashionable look.

Gregory23b, yes I understand your point. Good one too. But to clarify what I meant for everyone; there was not a mold that produced a knife handle or sheath. The sheath can be stamped with designs, but not one large overall stamp to completely decorate the sheath in one hit. Therefore in making the second or forty second sheath of the day, the stamps will not be in precisely the same place, stamps will land on the 'lines' and also be forgotten to be placed. Today we have the expression 'any imperfections is proof of hand craftsmanship and no two pieces will be alike.'

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The blade was always a whittle tang and would either pass through the handle and be rivetted through a cap or were simply bonded in, either is correct and I assume a matter of cost; I don't know if it was regional. Handle wood was very often box with holly also popular.

If you do rivet the tang be careful not to split the handle between the balls through too vigous tapping- it is easily done if the blade has a widening tang to the shoulders.

Have fun.

Tod

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