In browsing through pictures of german church monuments of 14th C. knights/soldiers, I often not only see a T-hauberk but also a hauberk of the yoke-construction (mantle as a basis from which to suspend three tubes).

Example:
Sleeping Guard 1340-1350

What are your thoughts on this construction. Do you have any finds to back this up? And if these sort of hauberks did exist, coming on topic here again, how would their armpits be constructed.

1
have the tubes meet each other all the way in the armpits, front to back
._______
(_|___|_)

2
have 4 small triangles suspend from the mantle which run inwards into the armpit to meet the tubes (the upper and lower triangles of the X's in this pic)
._______
(_X___X_)

I was thinking about constructing such a hauberk. I have just picked up riveting mail (have Joris from the Liebaart's tools) and this would be a great project to enhance my authenticity: a riveted yoke constructed hauberk.
Which reminds me; I also see on these pics that they sometimes have mail gorgets coming from under their coat-armours. Would these maybe be part of such yoke constructed hauberks? The weave would be the same since the hauberks top would consist of a mantle. It would only need buckling up in the back of the neck for this lenghtening of the hauberk upwards.

Example:
Gottfried von Bergheim 1335

Bertus

[ 08-21-2003: Message edited by: Herman ]

edited so much because the forum keeps screwing up the second pic,
look at the photo and you'll get the idea

[ 08-26-2003: Message edited by: Herman ]

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I don't recall seeing this yoke construction. Got any pics that show one? The one you provided, you can't tell if looks like the maille collar is on a mantle or part of the body mail.

If you're going for a more authentic configuration in a mail garment, you should also have it tailored to fit the body - expansions across the shoulders, tapers through the waist, etc.

(Plug) The latest publication of the Mail Research Society (MRSJ) has a sketch of where to place these. Follow Erik's profile/sig link for a copy.

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It is entirely possible that shirts using this type of construction were made. However, I have not yet come across one other than in artwork. The one 12th century shirt that I know of is made with ninety-degree seams for the armpits.

Yes I was thinking about buying the Mail Research Society Journal. Still have to find cash for it though.
Tailored to fit you say. You mean like as described in this link near the bottom of the page. I suppose having a waist in it would be a good idea. But I think having a yoke constructed one rules out the expansions for the shoulders.
I'm still wondering how the hauberks were constructed that had a pointy bit dangling at their bottom in the centre at their fronts and I also wonder if they had this also on the backside. You see this centre triangular piece often on 14th C. men-at-arms hauberks. There's two types that I can see:

1
has the pointy bit but just attached to the hauberk. A lengthening of the hauberk in a triangular piece.
Example: Gottfried von Arnsberg, 1372

2
has the pointy bit integrated into the weave of the hauberk
Example: Konrad von Seinsheim, 1369

I think type two is more beautiful and more interesting to make, but I wonder how it was made back in the old days.
My solution for the moment has been to cut my hauberk open in a T shape at the centre in the bottom.
._____
___|___

The two rectangular pieces fall down and I put three triangular pieces of mail into it, one large one and two small ones:

._____
\ . / /
\ \ / /
\/|\/
. \|/

Large pic at which you can see it clearly.

Anyone else have a suggestion how to accomplish the type 2 look? I was thinking about expansions and all that, but couldn't figure out in my mind how that was going to work.

Jeff, about the yoke constructed type hauberk,this pic shows the same guy from a distance, you can clearly see the weave continueing from the mantle like top and you can see the weave is the same for the arms as for the body-'tube'.
This pic is also pretty clear. Although the aventail partly covers it, you can see the top of the hauberk is a mantle.

Thanks for the enlightenment Erik!

And thanks Mart for your helpful words. It is nice to know that the traingle type of armpits is the best one and it is nice to know someone else is trying to make this sort of hauberk instead of the t-shirt one.

[ 08-26-2003: Message edited by: Herman ]

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I seem to recal several pictures from manuscripts showing the mail going both ways down the sleeves. I have seen no evidence for the 45 degree seam which seems to be more common in reenactor circles, and there is pictorial evidence for the "yoke" method.

The question of inegral coifs must also be considered in a T style construction, as well as ways of limiting the wide sleeves that seem to form.

The problem I had was in the armpits, and in the end, I had to have 2 90 degree seams running parallel to the arm. Not noticable unless you are looking, but irritatiing as a seam is what I was hoping to avoid.

I would be very interested in hearing more about the 12th C suit which you have seen Erik. The main questions I have are how much and how they contract the sleeves if the mail is running the "wrong" way?