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Author Topic: Side arms for household archer?
Strongbow
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posted 06-09-2003 12:55 PM     Profile for Strongbow     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I'm continuing my quest to build my late-14th-century archer's kit. I've commissioned my yew longbow from Jay St. Charles (expect completion in November), and I'm beginning work on a gambeson sometime in the next month or so... I'll post a thread on construction of that when I decide I have the gumption to turn my hands raw and bloody from hand needle work. Now I'm onto picking my sidearm.

Since I intend to depict a fairly well-off household archer, I intend to have a reasonably up-to-date higher quality kit when I'm finished. But I'm a bit undecided in how to proceed on the side-arm. Given my status, it seems to me that my weapon would not be some cheap piece of junk, but rather a decent quality weapon of contemporary design. Similar to contemporary knightly weapons, but not as elaborate or well-finished.

I could just go for a simply type XVIII-ish single-handed arming sword, but I'm really attracted to the type XVa hand and halfer. Something like the Arms and Armor Black Prince, which just screams "late 14th-century" to me.

Is this a reasonable choice for my impression, or would such a weapon simply not find it's way into the hands of an archer, even if a well-equipped one?

I also have my eye on A&A's "French Medieval sword."

Strongbow


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NEIL G
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posted 06-10-2003 03:07 AM     Profile for NEIL G     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi

As an archer, you are a professional soldier, and should have good kit.

However, remember that this is a secondary weapon for your character, and I'd have thought you'd be better off with something like a falchion and buckler than a hand and a half, which is too likely to get in the way.


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Dave Key
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posted 06-10-2003 04:42 AM     Profile for Dave Key   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Just to qualify Neil's comment ... as an archer you might be a professional soldier, but in probability you would not be.

I'm not too sure on the detail for C14th archers ... precisely when in the C14th anyway ? ... so this is going to be fairly C15th biased ... so take in 'under advisement' ... however if you are aiming to represent an archer with a degree of status (which would require a Lord of appropriate higher status) then I'd agree that a basic sword (or falchion) and buckler would be appropriate. However as an archer you'd also be expected to have a means of putting your stakes into the ground, hence the frequent (well relatively) reference to lead mauls which could serve the dual purpose of mallet and weapon.
If you do go for the sword then a simple single handed sword would seem most appropriate.

Cheers
Dave


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NEIL G
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posted 06-10-2003 05:23 AM     Profile for NEIL G     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Dave;

Strongbow specified that his character was "A fairly well-off household archer", which is why I said he'd be a professional soldier.

I wasn't suggesting that all archers would be professionals, but I'd certainly expect a household archer to be.

Neil


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Strongbow
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posted 06-10-2003 03:01 PM     Profile for Strongbow     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
HI,

Neil has it right I think. My persona will be an archer in the employ of some great lord. He would serve as garrison for his holdings or serve him directly in the field. As I understnad it, such men tended to be well equipped: decent armor, quality weapons, well provisioned. Most would have been mounted on the march.

Going by contemporary illustrations, it seems a sword and buckler combination would be a good pick for this impression. It seems very likely to me that a household archer would have been trained in the use of sword and buckler not only for self defense in the field, but to increase his utility as an escort/bodyuard to his lord. Although from much later, I understand the Archers under Warwick at Calais often took duty as night patrols armed with hand weapons. Likewise, I understand some archers in Burgundian service took guard duty with hand weapons.

My brain says a simple single handed arming sword ala the "French Medieval Sword" or some flavor of Falcion (like the MRL "wakefield") would be most likely, but it brings up the question at the heart of the matter: What access did non-noble soldiery have to the "latest and greatest" of military technology. I guess my question is did the knightly classes and the professional soldiering classes use similar swords? And if they were different, how so?

Strongbow


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NEIL G
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posted 06-11-2003 03:02 AM     Profile for NEIL G     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
If you're doing 100 yrs war English, archers have access to unlimited amounts of the latest military equipment, free of charge.

It's lying around in heaps on every major battlefeild, along with hordes of dead frenchmen.


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Dave Key
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posted 06-11-2003 06:16 AM     Profile for Dave Key   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Neil,
No problem, sorry if it sounded like a put down ... it wasn't intended as such.

As regards patrols ... certainly in the C15th ... all archers and men-at-arms were required to serve as Watch & Warde within the army. Within a Castle/Town the garrison would also be expected to act as the Watch. In Coventry the City Watch were provided with glavies or poleaxes as well as their Sallets & Jacks.


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NEIL G
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posted 06-11-2003 12:55 PM     Profile for NEIL G     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Dave;

No offence taken!

Neil


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Sceotan Actreo
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posted 06-24-2003 03:32 PM     Profile for Sceotan Actreo     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I have a persona as an Anglo-Saxon Huntsmen's apprientice, I'm 17(as a trained archer it would be normal, since skilled archers weren't as abundent in the
pre-Norman years, for me to be on register for the local thegns and the kings muster) So my period is a little earlier, but I thought what I know might help. I am primarely a scout. I'm small(5'2) fast and spent a lot of time in the woods so it's what I'm best at. This means everything I do relies on stelth and speed. My main weapon is, of course, my longbow. I also carry a 26" saxon style sword that is light and easy to whip in and out at need. I use a full 28" round shield as opposed to a buckler, not period for you, but I would much more suggest going with some form of shield and a single hander. Having something to block with can save you in too many ways to count plus it frees your sword from taking all the blows and therefor saving it most of the risk of possible burrs or other damage to the blade that will need to be repared. My best advice to you is to work out the best and fastest possible system for holding your weapons. I carry a bow, side quiver, longknife, sword, sheild, and a short spear into open combat minus the spear for wood and scouting work. I've spent hours working out the best and fastest places to keep everything on me and let me tell you, just being able to get my sword or longknife out a fraction of a second quicker than someone can raise their's has saved my butt on more than one occasion.

--------------------

And let thine Saxon arrow fly.


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NEIL G
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posted 06-26-2003 01:29 PM     Profile for NEIL G     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Sceotan Actreo;

Please don't take this wrong, but you sound over-equipped for your social status.

As far as I understand it, a sword is going to be a high-status weapon in your period, and I'd doubt you'd have more than a spear and long knife - even most professional warriors don't seem to have one in most period illustrations.

It might be worth thinking about either increasing your social status - if the rest of your kit can match it - or downgrading your weaponry to match it.

Neil


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Sceotan Actreo
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posted 06-26-2003 02:03 PM     Profile for Sceotan Actreo     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Actually, Skilled archers and scouts were such a valuable commodity to most nobles armies, that Theghns would equip them handsomely to aquire their services. In my case the "extra" equipment I have is portrayed as loot taken from dead Vikings. If you think of it in that context, it's not unreasonable as what idiot would leave top of the line equipment on the battlefield to rust away.

--------------------

And let thine Saxon arrow fly.


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NEIL G
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posted 06-27-2003 06:33 AM     Profile for NEIL G     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Sceotan actreo says

"Actually, Skilled archers and scouts were such a valuable commodity to most nobles armies, that Theghns would equip them handsomely to aquire their services."

What's your evidence for this in the Anglo-saxon period?

I'm very definitely not an expert on that period, but I can't think of many sources for archers being considered an important component of anglo-saxon forces, let alone highly-regarded or especially well-rewarded.

This doesn't mean the evidence isn't out there, simply that I'm not aware of it and interested to know what it is.

As for picking up the sword of a dead viking, fair enough, anybody can get lucky.

Neil


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Sceotan Actreo
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posted 06-27-2003 12:48 PM     Profile for Sceotan Actreo     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
To understand this you have to take yourself out of the context of 14-14C. English Archers. The English concept of mass ranks of longbowmen had not yet been developed to its fullest, though accounts of the battle at Stamford Bridge include a good number of archers in Harold's forces, so the idea of archers in combat was diffrent than is widely thoguht. Archers were used in the traditional sense as we think of it when the numbers were avaliable, but more often skilled archers were used as scouts and snipers. A highly skilled archer was prized for one simple reason. That archer could pick off Viking cheaftans, Pictish leaders, Rival Thegns, and all of these leaders aids and captains, etc etc etc. A scout could provide security for an army on the move, especially throguh dense woodland, but what they were valued for were their skills as snipers. Harald Haradda (spelling?) is said to have died at the hand of such a sniping archer at Stamford Bridge with an arrow to his right eye. Archers were not nearly in as an abundent supply in Anglo-Saxon times as they were in later Medieval England, so would it not stand to reason that such a valuable skill would be sought after and paid accordingly? Some of this is just speculation, but not just mine many reenacting archers of my period think the same as well as a few English historians, and some is fact or atleast what is widely considered as fact. This is why I portray my extra gear as loot. I would consider it reasionable that a person in the business of knocking off nobles would find himself in possesion of some of those noble's equipment sooner or later. As fpr being "overarmed", I don't use everything I have at once. While scouting, like I said, I don't take the spear. The only reason I take my shield is that it makes a heck of a good barrier to prop against two trees and kneel behind to shoot when fighting in the woods. The longknife is tied to my quiver and is there if I need something not as bulky as a sword. The sword itself, a paul binns trilobe pommel and curved hilt, was not something I intended to be part of my kit to start with. It was a birthday present from my parents this past year and I don't know anyone who had a Paul Binns blade who would be stupid enough not to use it. I prize my blade and I think it being in the possesion of a person of my persona is reasionable if you think about it.

--------------------

And let thine Saxon arrow fly.


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NEIL G
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posted 06-27-2003 01:56 PM     Profile for NEIL G     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi

The whole point is that I AM thinking outside the context of 13-14th century archers - C13th archers are seen as a valid, useful tactical component of the army, and paid accordingly, as professional soldiers.

They are also much more likely to have access to swords, which are much cheaper, relative to income, in the later period.

My problem is that as far as I'm aware, the anglo-saxons show no particular signs of regarding the bow as an important or useful weapon. If anything, they seem to have positively ignored it.

Think of all the saxon sources, and how often bows aren't mentioned, even when having them would have been very useful - it's the people in the sheildwall who seem to be valued, not archers.

If the account of stamford bridge you've seen is the heimskringlasaga (which is the only one I'm aware of that includes lots of archers), it's actually C13th, and reflects that period rather than the actual battle itself - it also has the anglo-saxons charging home as cavalry.

I think the original question still stands - what period sources do we have that suggest saxon archers being especially valued or well paid?

Come to think of it, what original period sources do we have for them being used as snipers in the way that you are envisaging?

If you look at my original post, I'm not just suggesting that you don't use the sword, but that you make sure the rest of your persona fits with this - just like if you want to wear a big gold chain, that's fine....unless your persona is supposed to be a beggar!


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Jeff Johnson
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posted 06-27-2003 06:23 PM     Profile for Jeff Johnson   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Sceotan,

I suspect Neil is right. Swords in early medieval periods are quite expensive.

--------------------

Geoffrey Bourrette
Man At Arms


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Sceotan Actreo
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posted 06-27-2003 06:45 PM     Profile for Sceotan Actreo     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I've read too many books and articles to count on Anglo-Saxon warfare and battle tatics to go hunting up where I've found all this. What I do know is that there are period drawings and tapesteries dipicting archers in a sniping role that are from the 900s-1000s. The accont of Stamford Bridge you spke os is one I have read, but not the one I am speaking of. This account comes from 4 seperate books about 1066 all from 4 diffrent English historians who state in their reffrence to that battle that they are reffering to an earlier account than the 13c one. Also I think you'r underestimating the actual leval of a huntsmen's social status. Huntsmen were men, usually hired by Thegns or other nobles, to look after the forested areas of their property much like a Lead Hand would look after the agricultural portion of his property. They tracked game, kept records of game population, looked after any hawks used for hawking, and generaly were responsible for teaching a nobles children how to hunt and the ways of the forest. A yearly salery was often paid as well as enough land for a house and workshop. Some records even say that huntsmen under employment of the royal family to look after the kings hunting ground were the only people given permission to hunt deer besides the king. Needless to say. A person with that kind of affiliation with nobles would not exactly be low on the social latter.

--------------------

And let thine Saxon arrow fly.


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NEIL G
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posted 07-01-2003 03:15 AM     Profile for NEIL G     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Sceotan

a) A royal huntsman may indeed be a person of some status, but according to your earlier post, you aren't one. You are a huntsman's apprentice, and I'm not sure that apprentices pick up that much of the status of their master's trade until they are fully qualified. Until then, you're just an apprentice, and have about the status of a YTS trainee.

If you want to be a royal huntsman and walk around with a sword, go for it, but I'm still dubious you can justify it as his apprentice.

b) Regarding evidence for status of archers - your position appears to be that you've seen loads of evidence that proves you right, but can't be assed to actually show any of it to anyone else. If that is your position, fair enough, but forgive me if I regard it with a certain amount of scepticism.

Neil


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Sceotan Actreo
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posted 07-01-2003 12:17 PM     Profile for Sceotan Actreo     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
No offense taken on any leval. I don't own a lot of the books I have read on the subject is why I don't have them on hand. Most of them belong to other members of the live steel community who have mailed them to me to read and send back when I finish. Swords in reenacting is a debatable concept as it is. A LOT of people carry swords who may or may not have in all accuracy. As I said, mine was a gift and I'd make my parent's rather angery if I didn't use it. This is why I claim it as battle loot.
Like was said, Everyone gets lucky sometimes.

--------------------

And let thine Saxon arrow fly.


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NEIL G
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posted 07-01-2003 12:31 PM     Profile for NEIL G     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Fair enough.

Glad you didn't take offence.

Neil


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