I was hoping to glean a little more info from the experts here!

Once we hit the transition era, and plates began being added to the mail( Did I get it right this time? ) was less mail actually worn, or were the plates just added to the same amount of mail, thereby adding even more weight? What was the weight of the armor then?

And, along the same line of questioning, by the time we hit the late Middle Ages, and they were wearing full plate, how thick was that plate (generally speaking) and how heavy? We're talking a field harness, not parade (is there a difference?) or a tilting suit. Actually, now that I think about it, what did the weight get to on a tilting suit?

I hope I phrased my questions OK. And, any help is greatly appreciated!

Thanks, again,

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There are maille shirts found well into the 16th century. Some may have continued to be worn under a full harness, but there are documents from 1450 that depict arming doublets for wear under a plate harness that just have partial maille sleeves and a skirt.

Personal opinion is that full maille shirts under the most "modern", fullest-covering plate dropped from use around 1420-30, as fuller cuirasses with backplate came into use.

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Where do you get your figures for later mail shirts weighing 10 to 15lbs? The only shirts I would imagine at this weight would be for children and not for grown adults. The mail shirts I have studied from the 14th-16th centuries all weighed in at 20lbs. or more.

The weight difference between steel wire and wrought iron is insignificant when used in this context. If you are referring to harened and tempered links, then mild steel is not an option as it does not have an appreciable carbon content to allow for hardening. In spite of this, mail made from steel links, was much the same in terms of link size as that made from wrought iron.

Not to be a downer Mart, but if you are going by the information in the Wallace catalog, a lot of the wieghts are incorrect (ask David Edge). Basically,the old catalog is merely taken from Lakings old notes, which is why the Wallace has been looking in recent years to put out a new one.

Eriks new article has some more accurate weights and measurements on a lot of the Wallace mail which he has examined first-hand.

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I apologize if my post came across in an in-your-face type manner. I should have explained myself better.

Most 15th - 16th century shirts made with a link size common to Germany, like those used in the construction of A1 and A2, generally weigh in at around 20lbs. or more. However, if a smaller link made from lighter wire is used, then the weight will of course be less.

For our purposes we are looking at shirts like the two mentioned above. As Bob stated, the Wallace catalogues are sorely lacking in accurate information as it pertains to the mail items in the collection. If you look closely, the link size between A1 and A2 is very small, however, the shirts differ in weight by more than ten pounds. That in itself should raise a few flags with regards to accuracy.

A2 weighs in at about 23/25lbs. The weight in the catalogue is wrong. At the time the catalogue was composed, mail was not thought of in a very flattering light. As such the information about it that was written down was mostly crap. Only now are scholars beginning to see it for what it is, and that is an armour that is a very complex and interesting.

One other thing I would like to touch upon is your remark about there being so few surviving hauberks for comparison. This is not meant as accusatory, but what do you base this assumption on? This generally has been a common myth perpetuated by many people over the years. You would not believe how much mail is left out there from quite a few different time periods and cultures. Almost everyday I learn of new pieces tucked away in some obscure museum. Most of the published papers on mail have broad statements about mail in them that are based on four or five pieces. This is in my eyes poor scholarship. It is because of this I started the mail cataloguing project for the Society. Only when a large percentage of extant items is catalogued in a central place can we start to make generalizations about the history and nature of mail with any degree of certainty. Right now all we can
do is say maybe, or it could have been, or it seems to be etc...

Bob made a mistake about my article. It will not contain any weights, only measurements. I will be going back next spring to complete my cataloguing of the mail at the Wallace. Then I might get weights on the pieces.

Oh, mufflers and coif can add as much as 5lbs or more depending on the link style used.

I greatly appreciate all your help; all the information you've provided. Also, I apologize if my questions are poorly phrased or seem rather simplistic/naive.

I have a few more questions, so please feel free to continue to assist!

How thick did the actual plate armor get by about 1450-1500? And what was the weight of a full suit from that time?

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