i just sent you a couple of pics of items that i've been working on. i would like to get some commentary from you on them please.

the pics labled hlmt01, 03, and 04 are of my second shot at modifying a CD helm. i the advise given from my first atempt by rolling the edge and adding a larger finial. the linning is of a different configuration from the first and i aded greater detail to the buckle plate.

the pics labeled hlm01 and 02 are of a bowl which i'm turning into an "archers" sallet with rondels. i've cleaned up the raised crest since the pictures were taken and have evened out the blackening. my question revolves around the rondels. are the attatched to the chin strap? also should i cut into the bottom edge a half circle were the rondels go? since i want this piece to be low end munitions (and somewhat outdated)i did not roll the edge.

gorg02 and 03 are of a standard. ignore the maille, i'm working on some riveted maille to replace. my questions concercerns the attatchmnet of the maille to the leather band and the attatchment of the buckles.

thanks in advance for the comments,

daniel

p.s. remind me again how i can get these images posted onto the BB?

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Db

to post images you need to have them uploaded to a web server and either link to them or use the IMAGE button below and enter in the URL where you images are stored.

If you don't have a web host or space with your ISP, let me know and I will host the images for you.

Jenn

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the only web space that i have is on tripod, which is evil. could host them for me? i'll e-mail them in a sec.

thanks

daniel

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Db

Having the benifit of seeing the pictures, I can say you did a very nice job on converting the sallet. While a few of the simple arhcers skulls are extant, I don't know of any that retain their rondels (although there may be one in Paris). Jenn will have to do any uplaods, as the technology is a mystery to me.

JWHA 2590 (c. 1470 with Missaglia shop marks)I have personaly handled - it is an even simpler one without the keel, and it has the cut-outs - they are very small. It is very lightwieght - even given the metal loss, it would hardly weight more than a pound and a half, so don't worry about the origin of you modified 'raised' hat. It is a pretty cunning conversion that you managed.

I mentioned the one possibly in Paris, which I believe has the rondels 'restored', and in that case they are attatched to a very short pair of leathers held in place with the lining rivets, from the single image I recall seeing. Some of those side plates could be whoppingly large from 15th century art, although I have only seen tiny discs in reconstructions. If you were going to go for a middleing to larger sised pair of rondels, I think you would want to slightly dish them so they were a tiny bit concave, instead of being dead-flat.

You hear my commentary 'from the peanut gallery' this morning regarding the buckles, and the padding to the standard. Every reconstruction I have seen seems to use whip stitching to hold the mail in place, and usually (but not always) the linen padding. Good for you in making one, as from going through the details of the Howard books, they were one of the most common of articles for soldiers to have in the way of defensive armour, and they are grossly under-represented in the field.

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well i worked on the helmet last weekend. i got an event coming up this weekend and the next which i'm trying to have it ready for. i went ahead and made the cut outs on the side and attached a leather suspension for the liner, chin strap, and oxtail. i didn't use raised rivet heads going for simple munitons. i'll probably start the liner today after class but will probably afix the buckles and oxtail instead. i may not have the rondels finished by this weekend but will plan to have it by the next.

i'll get some pics up as soon as i e-mail them to Jenn and by her grace she hosts them.

quick question on the standard. would the use of expansion rings be warranted? i'm working on an improved model using riveted maille, 3/8" ID, which will have period buckles and maybe a liner; i'll have to get more feedback from you on the construction of the liner. i.e. attaching method, how much padding, is it quilted, etc. if you have a picture of one it would be great.

have fun,

daniel

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Db

Would like to see some of the pictures under discussion!

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daniel

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Db

Jenn

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daniel

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Db

sent you the pics.

Any word on the use of expansion rings in a standard? i just started spring break and will like to finsh my standard during it. i was looking at the pic of the back of one in the Medieval Military Costume book and it doesn't appear to have any. the first one i made, i wasn't particularly interested in it being an accurate representation and i used expansion rings to spread it all over my shoulders; however the size of the rings were much smaller and doubled. since i'm going through the trouble of making the second one riveted, i want to have the correct pattern for it.

thanks,

daniel

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Db

also, Jenn, did you get the pics that i sent you? do you need me to resend?

thanks,

daniel

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Db

I received the pics. I will try to get them posted tonight.

Jenn

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Most of my experience is with 16th century mantles/standards, but I think the construction would have been similar for 15th century standards. All of the period examples I have seen pictures of were made with the 4-in-1 standard European weave. It appears that they put together mail the same way they would have taylored cloth, by connecting triangular, trapazoidal, or rectangular shaped pieces together. An excellent source of information is Herbert Westpfahl's article, "Die Zweihandschwerter und Ringpanzer der Hornschen Schlachtschwertierer". In the article Herbert describes (if I remember correctly) about 8 to 10 mantles, 2 mail cod pieces, and a shirt in full detail. Including average link sizes, construction details, and brass links, if any. Every mail mantle/standard I have seen has used a different method of construction, so you won't have to worry too much on how you piece it together. The collars were usually made of links that were either a smaller diameter then the body links or used heavier wire to make the collar more stiff and protect better. Sometimes the stiffer links would extend into the front body part of the standard. A lot of the standards were edged with brass links along the top edge of the collar and the bottom edge of the body. There were some that had bands of brass links imbeded in the body of the standard. On page 120 in "Arms and Armour of a Medieval Knight" there is a picture of a late 15th century standard. It shows the general construction details although the seams are difficult to see because of how they hung the standard to photograph it. You can also see the heavier collar links and how they extend into the body for more protection.

I hope this helps,

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Sorry for the delay.

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quote:

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Would like to see some of the pictures under discussion!

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here you go Jeff, the pics are up. (thanks for the post Bob/Jenn) the pics are kinda dark. but they give you an idea of the shape.

i haven't had a chance to work on it any further because of my classload right now. spring break came and went way too fast. i've got another 3-4 weeks of classes left depending on my exam dates. it of course needs to have a liner stitched up and attached, rondels for the ears, the plates for the oxtail, and finally a buckle for the strap.

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Db

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for converting a modern helmet into a sallet, take a german army helmet from the WW I or II- they originally have been developed from the gothic sallet and are therefore matching closest. They are still in service at the german fire fighter brigades, btw.

good luck

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i still haven't finished making the liner for it or the side plates or tail. i've got a lil' over a week left in this semester then i can play.

have fun,

Please be very careful when deciding to modify WWI, WWII or any other actual historical artifact into a replica. I know the need to save money sometimes drives us to "cheaper" alternatives, but if you check the prices of actual WWI German helmets in good condition, I think you'de find you could sell it and buy a quality replica sallet with the proceeds.

U.S CD helmets are another matter... the surplus stores still have MANY and they are not rare. As always, just use good judgement.

here's a question, has anyone else made/own a scull cap with the side rondels? how do you keep them from ringing in your ears? are the rondels padded? a solution that was proposed was to extend the linning down to cover the area of the rondels which would dampen the noise and also pad against blows to the side of the head. suggestions?

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Db

the one on the bottom is my next project.

enjoy,

daniel

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Db

daniel

[ 03-25-2004: Message edited by: LHF ]

[ 03-25-2004: Message edited by: LHF ]

ok, the link should work now.

[ 03-25-2004: Message edited by: LHF ]

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Db

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quote:

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Are not modern military helmets made from tempered steel

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nope they are made from Kevlar.

i didn't have any problem drilling the rivet holes because i did break the temper when i heated the bowl in order to raise the ridge. after i finished shaping it, i retempered it using one of the kilns at school.

but are you saying that the end result was not worth my effort? you've made me cry.

daniel

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Db