Could you either post the pic or e-mail it to me as well? If you have a catalog number that would be appreciated - it is socked away in the reserve collection there.

I was about to mention that, but you beat me by an hour, it has a visor from the vauge outline I have seen that is sort of akin to a frogmouth bascinet.

It is certainly unique, and possibly either a forgery although unlike most of that date - it has been in the Musee for at least 130 years that I am aware of, it looks as if it would physically function correctly for a wearer. It could also be a mating of authentic, but dissasociated parts.

If it is authentic, it certainly is not likely to be 14th century - more like 1440 (the form save for the bowl matches very nearly an extant example in Milan - I believe thats the location). I am interested as if it is authentic, it is of a form likely to be 'Western European' in origin rather than Italian, and I am trying to assemble as many examples as possible that are positively neither German nor Italian in origin.

I would add, that if it is authentic, and entire (not composed from seperate authenic pieces), that it would be an extremely rare (possibly unique) form of helmet - I cannot recall any exactly similar in art, and I have been going bleary-eyed looking at the artwork of France and Flanders for the last 3 years working on my theory.

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Racinet's Full Color Pictorial History of Western Costume by Auguste Racinet

It should be noted that this should be looked upon with caution and not taken as 'proof positive'of the existance of an extant, just letting you know where I found it.

Jenn

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Many thanks for the photograph - I have never seen it depicted visor down. If you ever are in N.H. or Mass, I owe you a Lambec or a Chimay (if I can get it)

Looking at the bowl, and considering it has been in the Musee since Violet le duc's time, I'm inclined to think it is at least a composed piece out of authentic pieces, if not entirely genuine. Most forgerys of that age are usually easily spotted stinkers.

Keep in mind that even if it is genuine, it is unique.

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On another note, if the helmet is genuine, it's bowl is clearly in a Western European tradition, popular in France, the Low Countires, and England. it might even be an Italian export for that region - but the style is clearly principly depicted in mid 15th century art of that region. Actually, come to think of it, it looks like some odd visor-down sallets in some Flemish miniatures.

For those who havent seen the Rascinet painting, he shows it head-on, visor raised, and seems to have naiuled the proportions well in the drawing. The opening to the barbute has circular occularum with a stubby nasal, and the usual front opening to the edge of the helmet.

I just wish the author had included a catalog number.

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Oh yes...I've also been on the look out for documentation for german hound skull bascinet, that hinges from the forehead, it would be rather good if the top of the helm came to a point (similar to the german helmet in WW2) I've found one piece of doco for the spike, I just need to track down another two.

Well, other than it having been dated in this century by armour scholars to the mid 15th century, I'll tell you the reasons why that such is obvious to them.

Firstly, (ignoring the pointed bowl, which is in the same family as the St. Mary Chapel sallet in Coventry) the form of the skull bulge and tail, which do not occur in a 14th century context. Secondly, the shape neither allows for the ubiquitous camail and verveles of a 14th century bascinet, nor does it have mounting points for such. Thirdly, 14th century bascinets do not normally have rolled edges, and this clearly does. Fourthly, barbutes of 'corinthian' form all consistantly date between 1440 - 1460, Fithly, it is attributed to Missaglia - even if the mark is a historic forgery (as was occassionaly done to pieces to sell them for more value - sallets with 'a touch of Meylan' were regularly listed as being of more intrinsic worth in English inventories), it is a mark that did not exist until the 15th century. Sixthly, the visor is clearly of a 'frogface' form, which did not develop until the mid 15th century in a lifting visor.

It makes a very strong case all together for dating the piece in a mid 15th century context, assuming it is genuine. (the more I look at it closely, the more inclined I am to think it is, albeit unique).

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kinda cool looking

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Hope it comes out ok, first time posting pictures here!

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To address two different things said at various times (one of which disappeared Jeff J!)

- The utility of such a helmet? Jeff Hedgecock has pointed out that the visor added to the barbute makes it a very different helmet - he is absolutely correct (of course, he well ought to be considering his experience). That visor is quite specificaly in the tradition of visors made specificaly for jousting (in the French fashion, in an otherwise field harness), and a visor of similar form but different dimesnions is housed in the Churburg, on the 7 foot harness, made for Graf Ulrich. In essence, adding what is an easily dismoutable visor is turning a field helmet of normal utility with many virtues into something that can be used for this ype of joust, in addition to it's normal use. I sioncerely doubt the specific combination would be worn for fighting on foot - the additional protection offered would be negated by reduced visibility. YOu would have to unpin the visor for any use in this regard I would wager.

-Why don't I think it's Italian, and rather is Western European? (I didn't specify English, but I believe Violet le Duc first attributed - erroneously - it to be late 14th century English - probably because he thought it was ugly) I don't believe it is Italian (in the sense of it being an Italian armour in Italian fashion, for an Italian customer), as it has no parallel in Italian art or extant armour from the likely decades of production. While some early Italian armets have a little point in their keel, they lose this swiftly by the middle of the third decade of the 15th century. The point of the bowl is nothing to compare to this monstrousity.

Although the Musee L'Armee has it labled 'Italian', and 'Missaglia', this means very little, as the then curator in the 1970's (I am told by someone familiar with the Museum and its inner workings) in essence went through the armour collection, and pulled aside the obvious German pieces, labled them German, and then labled almost all the other armour not in that catagory 'Italian', with little reason. Anything particularly fine got attributed to 'possibly missaglia'. He did something similar to the weapons collection, to the frustration and detriment of study of continental students. Many fine pieces (including this) that had been on display for many decades was relegated to the back shelves and corners of the reserve collection. The situation is confused enough that when I made inquerry for permission to use a photo of Sallet H - 34, I was told it was no longer in the Museums collection, but on loan to the Cluney museum - although two friends had seen it on public display recently - one literaly several days before I recieved the response (and it was still there afterward). As an aside, H-34 is also labled as 'Italian', and it bears nary a mark, nor is there any solid reason to attribute it to that source, being quite different in form.

The clincher for me for a Western European attribution is the form of the bowl (although a sallet bearing Missaglia marks with a pointed bowl resides in the Kunsthistorichesmueum in Vienna, it id different in form, as I'll describe), and rthe fact that the bowls surface is faceted - not just smooth. The only parallels I have seen contemporary with this helmet are the Burgundian kettlehat in the Met, a similar kettlehat (faceted, minus the swirl) in the musee l'armee, and in Frano-Burgundian artwork (Renee of Anjou painted quite a few). Extant helmets that have this aspect later date from the mid 16th century and later (a fine Burgonet in the Scott Collection, with an acorn fineal) are most likely deliberate adoptions of earlier Burgundian fashion, as neatly postulated by Deuchler, who's thesis in lageis showing the adoption of Burgundian fashion in Germany from contact and then ammassing of loot by defeat in the 1470's - (in the case of a series of close burgonets of French manufacture late 16th - early 17th century, quite deliberate). Also, the tail is longer than normal for Italian sallets of this date, but is closely paralleled by the Coventry sallet, the Victoria and Albert Sallet, and a sallet recently fished out of the Saone.

I wouldn't call it English either - were I to venture a guess, it could be Flemish or 'Belgian' in origin, although it could as likely be a product of an Italian armourer working in a 'colony', such as sponsored by Phillip the Good in Bruge. The Coventry sallet bears a very Italianesque mark, but an unkown one, and Bruge has been speculated as it's point of origin.

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I must admit, I was too lazy to read all of your posts. As to the barbute with a visor:

I found a picture of one in one of my heraldry books. Unfortunately this was a repro of a 19th century watercolour painting whithout any further hint. At least, it was depicted alongside some other barrel helmets in a pretty bad condition. Could be copied from some find record?!

Another of these helmets, if I remember correctly, is depicted in Viollet-le-Duc, who again is pretty short on proof for his motifs.

The "Wagner" the Czech fellow told of is a book from the 1950s, written by Eduard Wagner and available in English from Dover Publications, basically was a collection of 14th and early 15th Century equipment of any kind. It was more or less a scrapbook for a huge movie production on the hussite Wars.
A good book, basically. It is a vast collection of pictures collected from serious articles on armour and medieval equipment, but as well from 19th century volumes, from medieval manuscripts and altarpieces.
So there´s a nice selection of realia, out-dated theories an illustrations, colourfully mixed with motifs from medieval illustrations.
Most Czech armourers rely upon this book alone and tell their customers there was solid historical proof for every idea taken from this book. If anyone should be going to order things "after Wagner", better buy the book first (quite reasonable)- Mr Wagner made a remark under every illustration which resources he used.

Best regards from Germany

Ivo

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by Eduard Wagner, Zoroslava Drobna, Jan Durdik, Jan Durdbik, Zoroslava Drobnba

List Price: $34.95
Price: $24.47

Availability: Usually ships within 24 hours
Used & new from $13.25
Edition: Paperback

Regards

Ivo

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Doug Strong
doug-strong@comcast.net

http://armourresearchsociety.org

Thanks for the info! They fit awfully well together for two associated items, and the hinge and rivet look good - but then again there is an armet in Philly with a bowl and two jugulars from three seperate armourers that look like they were ment to go together.

I was pretty sure the elements were genuine, considering the fabric of the helmets - it isn't like IV. 748 in the Royal Armouries reserve collection that has an obviously genuine lovely pointed bowl sallet, but the tail cut down by Samuel Pratt, and a boiler plate visor tacked on to turn it into a "bascinet"

Do you have a catalog number - I assume this is still in l'Musee l'Armee?

Thanks again!

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