I think that the breastplate is going to be a little early for your personna. If you want to go with German armour then it would definitly be in Kastenbrust style. Although the breast plate on Historic Enterprises site might work for Italian style. I'm not sure, Italian armour is not my forte'. Hope this helps.

Jason
Veltin Grimm

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i would look over his stuff, Robert Macphersons (armour god) and or Illusion armouries (i havent had good luck with this company but others here have)

good luck, and let us know what you decide or find out!

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Illusion does not make or offer Living History quality armour. Perhaps you were thinking of someone else?

quote:

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Illusion does not make or offer Living History quality armour. Perhaps you were thinking of someone else?

Gwen[/B]

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hmmmm maybe i was. i had delivery issues and customer service probs with illusion a long time ago, so they really wouldnt get my money anymore anyways. who else does living history stuffige? Wade Allen? Thadin (sp?) Arms? trying to think... ahh snow has blinded my mind this evening

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(In no particular order)

Tom Justus
Valentine Armories
Christian Fletcher
Marek & Jizba replicas historical armour (www.bestarmour.com)

C. Fletchers site says he is not taking orders - not sure about the rest.

I'm not even sure if these places are comparable.

In any case I e-mailed Jeff the other day - will see what he says.

A recurring theme whenever I see a review of Tom's work is "It's beautiful, but I had to pull teeth to get it out of him".

Valentine Armories
--Jeff has made 3 harnesses to replace armour purchased from Valentine. Great prices and delivery. Great on a stand in your living room, but it seems they are not clear on how it's supposed to work. I spoke to a fellow in their office on Wednesday about their Talhoeffer suit, and based on what he told me, it was pretty clear he was repeating what he had been told (or made up on the spot) and didn't really know anything about how armour is supposed to work.

Patrick Thaden clearly shows a lot of promise in the work he's done, but you might want to let him get some practice under his belt before you place a commission. He hasn't developed a good eye for shapes yet and the knowledge of what goes with what. The pieces I've seen are amazing for someone who's been at it for such a short time, but as it is with most thing, mastery comes with time.

Just my 2p

When I discussed the cuirass with Jeff several months ago, I was indeed worrying about how it would turn out. Now, having gone and seen it, and worn it, I can safely say that my fear was unwarranted. I should not have doubted Tom's ability, and now I learn the hard lesson of being more guarded with my words...

No, it doesn't look excactly like the one in the picture Tom had originally sent me. It differs in the neck area. But that is the *only* point in which it is not what I expected. Despite the difference in the neck, I believe this cuirass to be of sufficient quality to use in Living History. If the neck is going to be an issue, I'll get it fixed. I was mistaken earlier. This *is* the cuirass I thought I was getting, except for that neck.

If it looks too long, or the plackart doesn't lay down smoothly, it is the consequence of having put the thing together, *temporarily*, with screws and nuts, and not the final leather strapping, in order that Tom might accomplish a fitting before the final assembly. I did not find it at all too long, or in any way uncomfortable. I sent Tom a cast of my upper body, and I've gone to him for two fittings. It fits beautifully. Come on. Surely it's obvious that the plackart will sit properly once it's strapped.

Now tell me how the flutes on the tassets look weird. What's wrong with the culet? They look *just like* the tassets and culet on a cuirass in Mantova. It appears on pages 55 & 56 of "L'Armatura Lombarda", if I'm not mistaken. I'm sorry you don't like them, Gwen, but they *are* perfectly documentable.

I'm sorry if it doesn't appear so in the pictures, but those rolled edges are absolutely top-notch. Never crisper nor more perfectly executed edge-rolls have I seen, and I've been a patron to a very great number of armourers over the years.

I assure you that Tom has worked on it further since those pics were taken two weeks ago, and it looks even better now. The hinges and hand-cast buckles are done, and the front fauld has been finished. Tom says he'll be done with it shortly, and I might post pictures of it when it's done. Maybe...

Once again, these are *in progress* pics. Tom is a fine armourer indeed. Moreover, he has the counsel of the likes of Wade Allen and Robert MacPherson at his disposal, as they live not far away and visit him frequently. Tom also has ready access to Wade's collection of authentic armour, and is perfectly capable of producing Living History-quality items. Tom's ability is equal to or greater than that of nearly anyone else on the continient. Only Robert MacPherson surpasses him.

To add some names to the lists of armourers capable of making high quality reproductions.

In Europe -

Walter Suckert (semi-retired). He made a lot of the armour for the Company of St. George.

Per Lillelund Jensen. He made a lot of the armour for the Guild of St. Olaf.

Peter Liegh (probably spelled the last name incorrectly) - the fellow responsible for Toby Capswells harness.

William Radford -

There is another UK armourer who's name escapes me that is very good (and outlandishly pricey as well).

In the US or Canada

James Arland Gillespie. (seems to have a real eye for 16th century harness)

Peter Fuller.

There is another fellow normally out of the Seattle area, but on extended visit to Europe as well, who I can only remember from his posting tag at the moment - Armadillo

Almost of the armourers above have their drawbacks, but in general have an excellent eye, and a command of the medium. Waiting lists are long because there are more customers desiring the product than artisans capable of making them.

Patrick Thadden is definitely an up-and-comer.

MJ is not perfect, but if you order simple items from them, they give excellent result - we use them for 'munitions' armour. Most of the chaps up high on the list are master armourers capable of reproducing high quality armours accurately.

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If you're happy with the armour, and the way the transaction was conducted, that's all that matters.

Mea culpa

I think you will recall my commentary on your other thread on the AA. I don't think your cuirasse is terrible - the waist of it is determined by your natural waist (usually at the navel). I thought it could be tweeked a bit more in the plackart, and I added a long list of details that originals had, and yours could too - some which it absolutely should if you want to use it for Living History (those staples for the lance rest, which complete cuirasse of this form invariably have, as a for instance).

I don't believe there is an armourer on the planet, in the last 100 years, who has made an absolutely perfect reproduction of an extant 15th century armour. The armourer is limited by the materials he has to hand, and the body type of the customer. It doesn't help that modern armourers are forced to work in a variety of styles crossing centuries, whereas the original armourers recieved the benefit of long apprenticeships, and generaly worked in one style the whole course of their lives - not to mention modern armourers as a general rule do not have the benifits of a shop of several expert journeymen, and apprentices in training, and they have to reinvent the wheel each time, as the craft was a jealously guarded 'mystery'. I personally own a small collection of armour, made by some of the finest armourers alive - even though I ordered in large part copies of extant pieces - none of them are exact duplicates of the original, for a variety of factors. They are individual craftsmen and artisans, and some of their own vision goes into the interpretations - not to mention they usually don't have the benifit of having the original in hand to make comparisons as they are working. These pieces in my collection are head and shoulder above in quality the majority vast majority of armour being made today, but still none are absolutely 'perfect' - I don't believe it possible for them to be. What I do believe iis possible is a reproduction that is believable as a representation of a historic harness, and I'm afraid that we all must rest content with that, unless we set about buying originals.

I think Tom Justus is an excellent armourer - he is one of the few approved for Wolfe Argent in the capacity of making a full harness for a man at arms (as is Jeff, who will be making another harness for one of our members shortly, and Mac).

I would not throw away my cuirasse were I you, nor would I be unhappy - but I would have the details I mentioned added, especially if your goal is LH.

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Thanks for the kind words, Bob. I'll make sure it gets a lance rest. I spoke with Tom lately and he tells me that he's fixed a lot of what is wrong with the thing in those now two-week-old pics...

Gwen, I'm sorry for snapping. This cuirass has, for some reason, drawn a lot of negative comments on other boards and chatrooms and I guess I just took out some of that pent-up frustration here.

I have replied to your private email, I hope you have received it now. I look forward to your reply and hope we can help you if you are interested in our type of work.

My recommendation to anyone who wants to judge any particular armourers work and to determine if it's suitable for living history/reenactment of the type we do in the Red Company-1471 or other group with similar goals is this...

Put photos of what the armourer was trying to accomplish (the real stuff) alongside the work (or photos of the work) and ask yourself if it looks like what it is supposed to. Shape, fit, detailing, surface finish, etc. are all important. Only the prospective client can judge if a particular armourer or craftsman will deliver work that is up to whatever standards are required or the expections held.

You really have to compare the source material to the work, as a true reproduction armourer will use real armour for reference, even if he doesn't make slavish copies of specific pieces.

Ultimately, if you are involved in living history or reenactment, you should desire armour that is indistinguishable from extant pieces from the period. As an armourer, I strive to create pieces that could be taken as authentic ones, should they be aged a bit. I feel I accomplish this goal periodically, and I have much room for improvement. I believe that an armourer who says he has no room for improvement is lying to himself. Few of us modern armourers can consistently acheive the subtlety in shape, the grace in line, and the elegance in detailing that our forebears accomplished so well.

To make educated purchases, you must yourself be well informed and hopefully have a good eye. Do your homework and judge all potential suppliers against each other and against what you need.

quote:

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Originally posted by hauptmann:

Put photos of what the armourer was trying to accomplish (the real stuff) alongside the work (or photos of the work) and ask yourself if it looks like what it is supposed to.

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The work should speak for itself.

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You mean like this?:

Jeff's Armet from Mac

Ok, I'm bragging...

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Yes, thats an excellent example of what I was saying as well. You can see that the sweep of the tail, and the bottom edge of the jugular do not exactly duplicate the original. Then again, it has to fit on your head, and work with your harness. It also clearly illustrates what Jeff Hedgcock is saying by comparing the two, you would think they came out of the same shop, probably by the same armourer or journyman or combination thereof, and a roughly the same time. It is a twin brother, but not a clone.

It is also the work of argueably the best armourer on the planet alive today - my Chapel de fer is also an example of the same principle, a twin brother, but not a clone (and with a different finish). Mac would be the first one to say that his work was not perfect, and he always, always tells people to study the originals rather than his work, if they wish to duplicate armour accurately - like a carbon copy, each generation removed from the original is less clear. My cuirasse by Jeff is an example of the limitation of fitting historical armour to a modern body - it looks like it came out of the same shop as HM 11, but made for a stockier person.

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