I'm working on a 15th cent jack. It will be 20 layers of linen, no sleved and be about mid crotch in length.

my main question is on the closiers. I was thinking of making a solid front and back with buckles under the arms for closing. now, is this period? i cant' tell from the pictures i've seen in my embelton books (reenactment and drawing pictures/photos.

All i can find is front buckle and hiden hook/eye closer. is this the only true way?

thanks,

Chuck

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To the contrary, closure sems to have been principly by points. The only surviving extant late 15th/early 16th century jack is closed this way, it is the means commonly described (if at all) where jack construction is described, and it is the most common method carried overing into the more numerous surviving 16th century jacks of plates.

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my main question is to the side vs the front openings.

thanks chef!

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Front closure is the norm for most of these defences. I'd recommmend checking out the 1483 ordinances of Louis XI, which is one of the most detailed descriptions of how jacks should have been constructed. I'll post more info when I get home.

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Sort of on topic ?

For my budding 15th century Bohemian halbadier (sp?) ? I?m thinking of a mail shirt and then perhaps add a breastplate later.
Is that correct or does it break the ?don?t combine full body defenses? rule?

Would you wear an arming doublet or similar garment under the mail like a man at arms would under his harness?

I have just started on an arming doublet type thing with 5 layers and thought I might pad it just a bit with wool or scraps, at least at the shoulders and chest. Not too far in to back out yet though ...

Thanks.

Sorry for not seeing this sooner. Your idea for a defence sounds reasonable, and it should work fine. Infantrymen wearing mail habergeons and a breastplate (sans backplate) are described in several sources (including the equipment for an arquebuser in the 1473 ordinances), and I have seen it described as a German fashion, which tallies well with at least the German influenced parts of Bohemia. You could wear a full cuirasse over a mail haubergeon over an arming doublet with no trouble, but a padded jack would be right out. You can wear an infantry breastplate over a jack (but the mail would be too much), you could wear mail with a jack. Like you point out, too many layers too thick and one resembles a child with 3 layers of sweaters in a snowsuit.

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check out the illustration on page 18 lower left corner of Osprey's English Longbowman 1330-1515. it has a fringe of material around the arm hole and no sleeves. all that is offered is a side view with a seam closed by lace runnig down from the arm hole to the waist. the illustration is by Embleton, but he does not site his source. though the norm appears to be front closures, here is at least one example of side closure... however, this is not a primary source. but it is a start in looking for one.

have fun,

daniel

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Db

daniel

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Db

Yes, I do have a black and white picture of the van Eyke 'crucifiction' - it is in the 1987 Arms & Armour Society Journal issue - Beeston Castle Jack of plates, which covers so much more with the plates and the endnotes. The 1483 ordinances of Louis XI describe front closures, with a padded bit going over the closure, and an aditional padded apron over the groin - it is one of the most useful descriptions of jack construction there is, describing even how the thing should sit on the man (and how he should 'float inside it), where the seams for the shoulders need to be, ect. It is only rivaled by the descriptions of types of jacks 'to be made up' in the Howard household accounts. Collars seem to have been the norm on jacks - they are mentioned in both sources detailing construction (in the French source they say 'don't make the rear of the collar too high, else it interfere with the sallet tail'), and collars are more commonly illustrated than not. Gerry seems to have a tendancy to illustrate 'the wide varity depicted', and in doing so, on some occassions the norm can be missed.

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both the 1483 ordinances of Louis XI and the Howard household accounts sound like a wealth of information. where could i get a copy? or would you be able to foward me one?

on the collar note. was it in the ordinances of Charles the Bold to have a high collar then? are some of his ordinaces detailed in the osprey book about Burgundy? to what extent of detail does it go into? where could i find a better source?

now also on the sleeves, what was the norm? i have come across illustrations with no sleeves and the tuffs-n-fringe, short sleeve, long staight sleeves, long sleeves with the ball on the shoulder head, sleeves with bar and chain. and would each sleeve be particular to assignment, i.e. archers short sleeved as to not interfere with the operation of their bows, etc.

daniel

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Db

14th Century:
There are three epitaphs of german Knights: Peter creglinger 1365, Franzikanerkirche Rothenburg ob der Tauber (Germany); Theoderich von Lichtenhayn 1366, Predigerkirche Erfurt (Germany); and Dietrich von Witzeleben 1376, Liebfrauenkirche Arnstadt, that clearly show buttons in the front!
This is also to be seen at the Jack of the 'oldfashioned Soldier on the Isenheimer Altar 1515 by Grünwald.
There is also a surviving example from King Charles VI of France 1380; Musee Municipal / Chartres with Buttons in the front!

15th Century:
There are 3 surviving Originals, 2 at the Museum im Holstentor, Lübeck, 1 at the Altmärkisches Museum, Stendal
They have Eylets for closing them in the front....

The 15th century "jacks" (I wouldn´t call these "jacks" either, they are all sleeveless and collarless) are most certainly soldiers garments. The thick padding wouldn´t allow for a buttoned front.

The padding in Charles VIs arming coat is wool, but in the German jackets cotton, therefore it would be more appropriate to call the latter "aketons".

Since no surviving examples of multi layered textile armours seem to have been preserved until this day we must look at the purpose of the garment. If it is supposed to be worn underneath or in combination with a maille or an armour it may not need to be as protecting in itself as otherwise. If it is ment to protect the wearer we can assume that the thickness and sturdiness will make buttons very hard to use. Buttons will be very unpleasant if the garment is worn under a breast plate.

None of the arming coats preserved have been used as single protection armour, at least one of the German jackets has been used in combination with a breast plate.

So, in my opinion, from a perspective of usabillity buttons would not be the best alternative.

best wishes

There is apparently one Late 15th century or early 16th century padded and quilted jack, preserved in the parish church of Rothwell, near Leeds. It has been published recently by R. Knowles "A Defensive Garment in the Church at Rothwell, West Yorkshire", in the Journal of the Arms and Armour Society, Vol XI, 1985, pp. 299 - 305, pls LXX-LXXI.

Textile defenses are on of the least studied of armours, and the most redily confused in terms with actual defences, foundation garments, and items of clothing. I am hopefully waiting for a copy of a thesis regarding textile defences, to be published shortly.

Sorry for the delay in replying Dan - The Howard Household accounts are (or wre) available through the Richard III Society Sales Office (UK). I have never seen the entire 1483 ordinance of Louis XI, but a useful excerpt for you purpose can be found in The Journal of the Arms and Armour Society, Vol. XIII. No 2. September 1987, inthe footnotes regarding the Beeston castle jack of plates.

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Do you know the fabric in the Rothwell jack? I haven´t heard of it myself, and if it is multi-layered it would be an extraordinary add to our sources for textile armours. Sorry for not checking up the reference you have mentioned in the former post before this, but if you just could give a short note about the construction I would be very happy.

I am myself working with a documentation of a padded jack (sturdy linen - compressed cotton)and this find, new to me, may be of great help!

Glad to be of help. To quote the footnote

"...and consists of layers of strong, coarse canvas, firmly stuffed with wool, and stitched in columns. It is sleeveless, and originaly fastened down the front."

Dan, to answer your earlier question, I don't know regarding the arm defences. I think pictures can be found of fellows with and without sleeves drawing bows, up to and including full cannons of the vambrace of simple construction.

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My interpretation of the quote is that the Rothwell jack is another example of a padded, or stuffed jack (with single layers of linen to keep it all together), this time made out of wool, which seem not to be so common. It is hard to tell if there are several layers of linen (with a purpose to increase the value of defense), but if it is a mix it would be rather unique. I have never seen, or heard of, any mixes of multi-layering and stuffing.

As a contribution to the topic I give an example from an altarpiece (1439) from northern Germany. This jacket is actually closed on the back, with three buckles strengthened with leather. The buckles seem (at the original) to be made out of iron - rather similar to the ones used for closing the well known 14th cent Wisby coats of plates.

best wishes

Thanks for the pic. I had never seen that one before, and it's the first time I've seen a buckle and strap closure on a jack, and the first instance I have seen a rear closure for a jack. Perhaps it is a regional style?

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Actually it´s the first time I have seen it too, and I found the picture some weeks ago. In the altarpiece there is another pic of a soldier wearing a similar type of jack, but depicted from the front. Maybe the artist only had one single original? In that picture you can also see the thickness of the jack and how it seems to be open in the sides with high slitses.

I belive this to be an unusual example of a jack that probably existed during the first half of the 15th century. (In some cases we can suspect that the artists try to produce an archaic look because of the biblical motives.) Notable is that the jack is worn above all other garments, and that it has a relatively loose fit.

But we must also consider the similarities with the preserved german jackets (mentioned above, with the same dating), which I find striking. If this is a "Baltic sea"-style, or maybe an eastern style (some of the artists in Lübeck i.e. are from Poland), we have another parameter to consider in our reenacting! Too bad it will be hard to tell...

The square-quilted jack with the fringed cap sleeve is in Memling's Scenes from the Passion of Christ c.1470. Also worth looking at are Memling's Reliquary of St Ursula which shows a man with a bill with sleeved Jack with additional arm defences and an Archer with puffed upper-sleeved jack and breastplate. oth of these show no closure details which suggests a front closure.

The Howards accounts have the following reference ... (together with purchases of cloth for Jacks of various types ... which is in itself interesting) Note: Whilst the Howad's accounts do mentoin Jacks ... this is NOT a Jack, but a Doublete de Fence ... quite what the difference is is open to debate ... I have my ideas but you'll find it quoted as a Jack ...

"And the xxiiij. Janever [1464], I toke to the dobelete maker of the Holte to make me a dobelete of fense [probably what is now called a Jack but possibly an arming doublet], fore hevery for qwarter [the front two body panels] xviij. folde theke [possibly 19 layers of cloth, forming 18 folds?] of wyte fosteyn [fustian], and iiij. fold of lenen [linen] klothe, and a folde of blake fosteyn to pote wethe howete [to put on the outside]; and fore hevery bake quarter [the back two body panels] xvj. folde of wyte fostyen, and iiij. of lenen klothe, and j. of blake, for the kewferenge; and fore the sleves j. folde of blake fostyen, and vj. of wyte, and ij. of lenen klothe;"
The Household Accounts of Sir John Howard

Hope this all helps

tring to figure out how it should be pointed etc etc

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This is a rare photo of the jack in Lübeck, note that the piece seems to have parts of what I believe is the front cut away, maybe to make place for the breastplate.

There are more pictures at the photographers webpage:

The ordinances of Louis XI mention 'port pieces' as covering the front where the jack laces, and over the groin 'the same thickness as the body' - perhaps this originally had similar pieces?

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sorry for forgetting my signature I don´t think the "port pieces" would be able to cover this rather large hole (it is easier seen on the other photos), the ordinances mention what I would take as a small stripe covering the opening under the jacks lacing. The Lübeck jack would need a very very large piece (same size as the upper breast plate) to cover the hole.

Here is the citation:

"This Jack should be laced in front, and under the opening must be a hanging piece [porte piece] of the same strength as the Jack itself."

all best

/Henrik Summanen, Stockholm

I made a jack for myself about a year ago out of multiple layers of linen and a fulled wool blanket. I used a button closure because I liked the look but as I gear up to make the mark II version, I am looking at lacing as the most documentable meathod.