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Author Topic: 12th C. "Rhenish" helmet?
Kent
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Member # 161

posted 10-28-2002 10:54 AM     Profile for Kent     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi, All --
I'm interested in finding out more about a helmet type I have seen only in 2 places: "The War Lord" (on Charlton Heston's younger/tormented brother -- Guy Stockwell, I think), and an illustration from a coloring book from 1985, Knights and Armor by A. G. Smith(Dover Publications).

It was in the coloring book, illus. # 9, that it was labeled a "Rhenish type" (though the ilu. shows it on Richard I's head). Looks like a rounded (as opposed to conical) nasal type, with higher, extended dome. In both the movie and the book, it was of rivetted construction, not raised, but I don't believe it was necessarily always so.

Now that I'm writing this, I believe I have also seen this type one other place -- one of the readers on this board had a pic (NZ or Australian website) of himself in such a helmet, though from his own comments, he didn't like the way it had turned out.

I just want general info about this type of helmet, like
a) how wide-spread was its use, as far as we can tell from archeol. finds or period illustrations (probably originating in the Rhineland, if the name tells us anything)?
b) was it a flash-in-the-pan for a few years in a restricted area , or did it cover a longer period of use (like when does it first appear to when is it's last appearance)? I'm guessing it could have been around from the 800's to the 1200's because of its general type, but that is PURE guesswork.
c) does anybody now produce them -- like the Australian/New Zealander whose website I can not find again?

Thanks to anybody with better "documentation" than I have (it shouldn't be too hard to beata movie and a coloring book!)
-- Kent


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Kent
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Member # 161

posted 11-03-2002 01:16 PM     Profile for Kent     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Bump!

I won't do this often, but I am sure somebody knows something they can add here.

What do you say, you early Middle Ages /Norman Era Arms & Armo(u)r types?

Thanks again-- Kent


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Jeff Johnson
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posted 11-04-2002 08:48 AM     Profile for Jeff Johnson   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Without pics, you're not likely to get much response...

--------------------

Geoffrey Bourrette
Man At Arms


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David Meyer
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posted 11-05-2002 06:39 PM     Profile for David Meyer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi Kent -

Your main difficulty is that you're taking modern artists' representations and trying to see if they have any historical accuracy.

A better approach is to skip the middleman (the comic book illustrator, for example) and get to know actual pieces of medieval armor. Okay, not everyone lives close enough to a major collection - in that case get to know museum catalogs and books on armor by reputable authors. These sources will almost invariably point you towards more scholastic literature on the piece(s) that interest you, and they will help refine your eye as you craft pieces of your own (if that's your thing).

A good place to start is the Claude Blair book "European Armor circa 1066 to circa 1700". It doesn't represent all the current research on the subject, and is far from perfect, but it is encyclopedic in its scope, meaning you get a smattering of everything. He has a number of line sketches of pieces, but he lets you know where the actual pieces are located for further reference.

Hope that helps

David


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David Meyer
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posted 11-05-2002 06:41 PM     Profile for David Meyer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
P.S. - If you are really determined to find out more on the comic book illustration, you could write the illustrator, c/o Dover publications, and ask him/her about their sources for the drawing. I'd be surprised if that worked, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.

D


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Kent
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posted 11-05-2002 08:50 PM     Profile for Kent     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Jeff and Dave --
Thanks to both of you for your help. I will try to track down some photos, or at least get in touch with the illustrator (as you said, nothing ventured...). I'll post anything I get!
-Kent

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Mart Shearer
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posted 11-06-2002 08:59 PM     Profile for Mart Shearer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Kent,

I've seen several 12th century Germanic sources which show this general style, but I don't know if it should be restricted to "Rhennish" in classification. I think similar helmets appear in Sicilian manuscripts (although that's still Hohenstaufen turf, it's far from the Rhine).

Some online images can be viewed here:
http://euroscan.powerweb.de/euroscan-cgi/topixx

In the search (suche) box at the top of the screen, you can enter

"2-R41-D20-1170" or "2-R41-I18-1170" or "Hortus deliciarum". These images show "Phrygian" nasaled helms alongside the more bulbous "Rhennish" style. The original manuscript was sadly lost to fire in 1870, so it is possible the engraver of our copy got things incorrectly. The examples I've seen look more like a fluted bowl than a rivetted construction.

Another possible interpretation, although a much smaller hemisperical shape, is at "2-L44-R2-1180" from the Song of Roland of Pfaffen Konrad.


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David Meyer
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posted 11-07-2002 04:41 AM     Profile for David Meyer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hello again -

Manning Imperial in Australia makes a similar helmet. They call it a 'fluted helm'. Their website:
http://www.manningimperial.com/

Regards

D


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Kent
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posted 11-07-2002 06:14 AM     Profile for Kent     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Thanks Much!
Mart -- those are excellent images at the link you gave -- that is exactly the helmet I was talking about. I plan to study it more when I get a minute.

David -- Manning does have a helmet with the right general outline, though it doesn't look quite tall enough to me. Maybe I just can't tell from the picture. If the proper shape is fluted, though, then theirs is one of the few (maybe the only one?) that I've seen.

Again, thanks to both of you -- I feel like I'm on the right track now.

--Kent


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Mart Shearer
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posted 11-13-2002 07:50 PM     Profile for Mart Shearer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Kent,

Here's a late 12th century image from Northern England showing similar helms. (Yeah, it's the Bonnacon again .)
http://www.abdn.ac.uk/bestiary/comment/12r.hti


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