Well, where are they?

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Very nice work, I am truly green with envy.

[ 05-20-2002: Message edited by: Phillipe de Pamiers ]

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mighty nice Bob.

daniel

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Db

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I am really getting tired of you 15th century people doing your best to convert me away from 14th century stuff.

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(Zombie voice on)

Joiinnn uusss...

Check out the polish on that baby! Zoom in a bit & you can see the big grin on Bob's face! I hereby dub it...

Fingerprint Bait!

[ 05-20-2002: Message edited by: Jeff Johnson ]

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I'm glad you like my new hat. I got it to have something my hearing won't be restricted in and with good peripheral vision for while riding in the presence of the public, so as not to squash small, stupid younglings and their oafish progenitors who might get underhoof.

My armet is still my main kit, and when it gets a proper pennoncel with St. Julien gilt on it, I think the effect will rival this. Although now I will need two velvet pillows to set my hats on when not in use.

I wanted something clearly Burgundian, so I picked something known to have been Burgundian, and clearly in what I call the Franco-Flemish fashion.

It isn't finished yet - shortly it will go back to Mac, who will engrave the wavy-armed star/streamers of flames (depending on how you look at it) washer with an appropriate pattern and hatchments. Also, hopefully what you see brass here will be gilded, as this is supposed to be my 'sallet garnyshed with golde', as per John Howards little traveling kit. It was originaly going to be browned (as was the original), but since it was raised from a cone, the single weld on it showed perceptibly when a test browning was done, so we opted for a high polish since it is an officers 'hat'. The original had the applied piercework border and roping tinned, but I thought the brass would show in a heartbeat as the tinning wore, whereas gilding wearing wouldn't show as readily, and would touch up easier.

Between this hat, and the Cuirasse Jeff made me, I now own two reproductions of items of 'die Burgunderbeute'.

I hope when this is done, and Gwen makes my livery (in the form of a cioppa) out of ecclesiastical cloth, I'll give a good impression of a Burgundian officer. The final touch to the hat will be haveing several new feathers in an arrangement, with small freshwater seed pearls and small gold beads set along the spine.

Then when I get Normandie into a war saddle, with a trapper of brocade, and a chamfron with a panache of feathers to match mine, I think I'll give a good impression indeed.

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I won't contest the fact that being able to hear and having good peripheral vision whilst navigating a sea of humanity is a good thing. Likewise, I would never be so bold as to offer an opinion regarding "small, stupid younglings and their oafish progenitors".

I will however, tell you that you may be suprised at how unlikely it is that you'll have to worry about *anyone* getting underhoof. It has been our experience that while Jeff is riding Bella through a crowd that the crowd surges -away- from her, especially when both are armoured. They are an intimidating sight, especially to people who are not accustomed to horses. It is no wonder that the mounted knight was feared by footsoldiers, and the same holds true of modern people. Why do you think the police use horses for crowd control?

What you may find is that people, especially small children, will want to come up behind you to touch the horse. For some reason kids are not afraid of a horses butt; they think the horse could bite them so they stay away from the head, but they never think about being kicked. They often screw up their courage as the knight passes and then make a lunge before they pass out of reach. Thank goodness Bella is as solid as a rock and has never so much as threatened to kick when her tail end is swarmed by kids who want to touch her. Even though we know she won't kick we show kids her luncheon plate sized feet and tell them that "although she's never kicked anyone, you never know if she's having a bad day and we would hate for you to be the first one to get kicked or stepped on." I think living with a goat underfoot (the goat stands *under* her when it rains) has made her careful of where she puts her feet down.

Just a tangental thought-

I'm with you on this one. Most people, especially those unfamiliar with horses, will move away when a moving horse approaches them. And also be prepared to be followed, horses draw children like the Pied Piper. I would also not really consider riding into a crowd of possibly horse ignorant public onlookers either but I suppose under some circumstances it might occur. I can also go along with the "oafish proginators" upon occassion because often adults who should know better don't but I can't get with calling an excited horse loving child who just wants to get close to something they love "stupid." And as a horse owner it is always important to remember that the closest many people have ever been to a horse is the TV or movie screen. It is ignorance and stupidity on our parts to assume that they will be horse-wise or wary of our animals just becase they could get hurt.

If you are portraying an officer, moving through a crowd, wouldn't a good way to maintain your portrayal would be to have your foot soldiers clear the way wouldn't it? Some sort of "Make way for..." That solves both problems long before they ever occur.

However, if you are concerned about people crushing in on you while you are performing a demonstration, it is your responsibility to provide a "barricade" either in the form of helpers, ropes, etc. The reason I say this, is no matter where you are, or what kind of insurance is in place, if your horse crushes someone, you are liable. It doesn't matter if the person did something stupid or not and it doesn't matter if the location has some form of liability insurance. If you are the horse owner and it's your horse that causes the problem, you are the one that the injured party comes after.

I truly hope that didn't sound preachy or soapboxish, I didn't mean it to be. I have just dealt with the public vs horse show locations, barns, etc for a long time and I know some of the things that can come up and what a horse owner's options for protection are.

BTW, that is a truly gorgeous helm! (Honest attempt to return to the thread)

Ace

[ 05-22-2002: Message edited by: Acelynn ]

I would never ride Normandie through a crowd of civilians. That would be a action of stupidity of monumental proportions.

The problem occurs when the less bright bulbs in the chandelier do things like duck under roped off areas to 'get a great shot' with a camera. Do not be surprised by the boundless possibilities of stupidity - we had someone duck under a rope and leap in front of a full scale field gun "because he wanted a shot of it going off" - 30' in front of the thing, where the overpressure would have killed him stone dead had the gun captain not seen him and shouted a command to halt the drill.

I have seen the GP do things in camps from nearly stumbling into campfires, grabbing weapons (My tax dollars paid for this! I have a right to touch/swing/poke with it! - Sure, can't tell the difference between private & public property), grabbing food out of reenactors hands and tasting it - spitting it over the reenactor because it wasn't to her taste, poking sleeping babies to "see if they are real". Unless you have dealt with the GP as a reenactor in a camp open to them, you have no good idea as to the depth of their potential stupidity and possibly fatal actions. Then when they kill themselves, it is your fault because you let it happen.

The equestrian activity concerning the public is presentations at the Higgins, where there will be a roped off area, but that has never stopped an idiot, and from a plethora of examples, including very recent ones, I have no confidence in any rules or barriers stopping a determined idiot - I have had two recent incidents where people have gotten up during a presentation and nearly walked clean into a swinging pollaxe (one guys cellphone went off, and he was in the front row - jumped up in mid-swing, and dashed out the door). Fortunately I was able to check the swing of the head. One young mother was angry with me when I told her to clear her two year old away from the front of the stage - she wanted to climb up in the middle of the portion of the demonstration where weapons were being discussed and demonstrated. Heaven forfend the child should be kept in control, and taken out of potential danger.

The potential for accident boggles the imagination.

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Unless you have dealt with the GP as a reenactor in a camp open to them, you have no good idea as to the depth of their potential stupidity and possibly fatal actions.

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Jeez, what is the mean IQ of the general public at your demonstrations??? I have done both reenactment in an open camp and been in professional equine business for many years and I have never seen such rampant displays of idiocy. (And believe me, I've seen a few that made me go "What was he/she THINKING????)

I have never had the experience of such rude or freakish behavior in any of those settings. Do you think it is your venue, the types of people who show up to see your demonstrations?

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nearly walked clean into a swinging pollaxe (one guys cellphone went off, and he was in the front row - jumped up in mid-swing, and dashed out the door). Fortunately I was able to check the swing of the head.

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I would seriously rethink the amount of space I was using for demonstrations if someone standing up caused a pollaxe to come within range of his head. I can't call that his stupidity, that is poor use of space on the part of the demonstration. A lawyer would have a field day with you if something happened. "Just why was it you felt my client was safe to be in range while sitting but not while standing? Did you state to my client that he must remain sitting or he would be in danger? Did you take into account the fact that emergencies can occur and someone would have to get to their feet?"

It stinks, but it's true. Sounds like things are a lot tougher and crazier in your part of the country for reenactors than they are here. Regional manners? Does make you wonder.

I sure would get myself a good liability policy in place if I were the head of your group. Sounds like you all could use it given the examples you have supplied with your experiences.

Outside really isn't an option due to lack of seating and the fact that it is a parking lot.

The guy with the cellphone made a poor choice when the incident occurred. He walked around and behind Bob while his back was turned to that side of the stage. One of the reasons for the helmet change in the demo, for visibility purposes and hearing.

Not all of the examples given are in our region. One was in California, the others up and down the eastern seaboard, HI (historical interpretation), RE, and ACW.

The incident with the little girl and the angry mother, tends to demostrate the fact that people don't like to be embarrassed in public, but also don't have the sense God gave a sheep when it comes to controlling their child's behavior. It was also at the equivalent of a RenFaire. It was Chaos incarnate that day.

I wouldn't call it stupidity, mostly, I would say ignorance and a malfunctioning or absent sense of self preservation on the part of the GP.

Though when the "kids" (horses) are to the point where we think they are ready for their public debute, we will probably be up the hill at the local park in a place where there is plenty of space and we can see people coming. Most likely we will have a group appointed Marshal who will address the crowd regarding safety around horses and keep an eye on folks to make sure they don't dart under the rope.

Every crowd dynamic is different. You have good ones and bad ones.

I have pictures of Bella at parades, timeline events, school demos and reenactments, standing in a sea of children and adults, walking calmly in front of a monstrous garbage truck, standing for cannon fire, turned out to graze in the middle of camp, etc. Petrus made his debut at Bates this year and was exposed to the horse eating picket line, horse eating tent that popped up mushroom-like in front of him, troops of men with horse eating pikes waving in his face, children trying to feed him everything from ice cream to straw, cabbageball-- and had such a good time he didn't want to leave and it took us 40 minutes to get him in the trailer.

IMHO it's all about how you deal with your horse, how much they trust you, and what you've exposed them to.

Just my opinion of course.

"IMHO it's all about how you deal with your horse, how much they trust you, and what you've exposed them to."

I have to admit to having a low opinion of most members of the GP, having seen time after time no matter what the venue, on my way to joust having my squire standing in front of some one asking them politely to hold, and completely oblivious to what was going on around them, they simply walk around the squire only to bounce(literally)off the side of the 2000 pound Percheron I was riding, and then staring at me like a bird staring at a cobra, in disbelief.

I don't think that I'm adding fuel to the "horses are unsafe" debate. I just believe you have to be prepared for the worst possible incident. Since some members of the GP do not have the sense God gave a lemming, it behoves the rider to be prepared for any possible incident of stupidity.

All I can say Aeclynn is that you can't have had much experience at large scale reenactments open to the public. You may have been to some, but these types of incidents are commonplace across the country. and regular fare for retelling about the campfire. The incident with the food being grabbed, and then spat over a friend of mine occured at an F&I event, when a woman snatched a chocolate covered fish off the table in front of him, then spat it over him accompanied by indignant ranting about "how dare they serve such an abomination!" ignoring the fact that the food was not intended for public consumption, and an announcement had been made to that effect (you can't serve food to the public, due to BoH prohibitions). Almost ruined my buddies $500 brocade coat.

The incident with the cannon occured at a Rhode Island event, and I have heard of NUMEROUS similar events, from the mid-west to Europe. A fellow in the UK two years ago went across a line he shouldn't have, picked up a mace, swung it around and whalloped himself in the head with it - and tried to sue the reenactment company who's camp it was in apparently. This is experience on my part from a decade of reenactment and living history. It can get much worse, four years back, a drunken member of the public physically assulted members of "The White Company" at a demonstration at Tretower castle. He apparently wanted to show his girlfiend how tough he was, and what wimps the WC members were (who were armed with a variety of swords, bills, etc, but who could not even defend themselves due to the way the laew is tailored, so shut themselves up in a castle room. Obviously they could have killed him stone dead in a heartbeat, but were more intellegent than some of the GP). The incident ended in court.

I completely agree that it is a matter of how much your horse trusts you, and since most of us in the US dealing with 15th century LH and horses own their own mounts, the likelyhood of some incidents I have seen with rented horses at ACW events occuring are slim. There is no guarantee however that at some point some damnfool won't leap in front of Bella, Normandie, or Barak with a camera in mid-canter to "get the perfect shot", or some ass won't go pull a horses tail. I am far more concerned for the welfare of the horses, possibly being fed something inapropriate whan someone isn't looking.

In short, the problem isn't the horses - it is the Public.

There was an interesting article in "Military Illustrated - past & present" a year or so back talking about setting up reenactment sites where cavalry is present to take in any possible bad situation (leaving a clear spot for a bolting horse to pass through, rather than enclosing a field on four sides with a crowd is an excellent example).

Our society has allowed people to abrogate any responsibility for their own actions, and we as horse owners need to be prepared for the worst possible incident - to protect themselves when some ass attempts to test the theory of Social Darwinisim (the stupid must die, and will find a way to kill themselves).

It is a ad fact of modern life.

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