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Author
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Topic: Shoes & armour
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Bertus
Member
Member # 308
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posted 04-22-2002 08:38 AM
   
I know that there were sabatons worn over ordinary shoes, but has anyone ever heard of sewing mail to shoes. I saw this pictured once in an osprey graphic (dunno which one etc, sorry) and I would like to know if it is historically accurate or just an artists imagination. Does anyone have any sources to support mail on shoes? Thanks!Bertus -------------------- Bertus Brokamp
Registered: Apr 2002 | IP: Logged
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chef de chambre
Admin & Advocatus Diaboli
Member # 4
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posted 04-22-2002 03:03 PM
Hi Herman,Welcome to FireStryker! Yes, in fact I have seen a painting by Hugo Van der Goes - the altarpiece in Trinity Chapel that shows an unknown militant Saint (I had thought him to be St. Michael, but I am told that they are unsure) that has a lovely pair of short mail sabaton, pointed directly to the Saints arming boot - with no connection to the greave - you can see it clearly in the painting, which was completed circa 1470. The sabatons are quite interesting, as there clearly are small applique patches of gilt brass mail in the form of triangles in a pattern accross the surface. Similar patterns can be made out on standards of mail in contemporary English funerary monuments, and the decorative patches stand proud of the surface of the standard. This is over a hundred years after the era you are portraing, and I am less familiar with 14th century harness (still a pretty good command of it I think). That said, I am quite sure there are frescos and the like from the 1380's and '90s in Italy, showing mail patches over arming boots. Looking through Boccia's "Mantova", I come across a statue of a man-at-arms in Bologna on a tomb (figures 12-13) where mail sabaton can plainly be seen even at this early date (1403). The tomb of Enrico Brancaccio c. 1406 shows scale sabaton, and of course from there on they (mail sabaton) are commonplace. While fairly certain they are in use much earlier, I hope someone more familiar with 14th century armour can weigh in with some documentary evidence for same. Getting similar evidence for the Low Countries might be a trick however. For peoples edification, I'll try to post a picture of the sabaton on the Van der Goes altarpiece. [ 04-22-2002: Message edited by: chef de chambre ] -------------------- Bob R.
Registered: May 2000 | IP: Logged
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Bertus
Member
Member # 308
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posted 04-24-2002 07:32 PM
Thanks for the thorough replies! 
I've got another question that needs answering though...
It doesn't fit in this topic but heck I've got a fellow reenactor who claims that somebody who portrays an italian mercenary anno 1362 can wear a barbute. But I dunno about this, weren't barbutes typically 15th century? Herman -------------------- Bertus Brokamp
Registered: Apr 2002 | IP: Logged
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Seigneur de Leon
Member
Member # 65
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posted 04-24-2002 09:30 PM
quote:
Yes, in fact I have seen a painting by Hugo Van der Goes - the altarpiece in Trinity Chapel that shows an unknown militant Saint (I had thought him to be St. Michael, but I am told that they are unsure) that has a lovely pair of short mail sabaton, pointed directly to the Saints arming boot - with no connection to the greave - you can see it clearly in the painting, which was completed circa 1470.
Chef, where can I find this? Book name, website, etc... I'd appreciate a look at how the points were arranged. Thanks. -------------------- VERITAS IN INTIMO
VIRES IN LACERTU
SIMPLICITAS IN EXPRESSO
Registered: Nov 2000 | IP: Logged
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J.K. Vernier
Member
Member # 123
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posted 04-24-2002 10:43 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Herman:
I've got a fellow reenactor who claims that somebody who portrays an italian mercenary anno 1362 can wear a barbute. But I dunno about this, weren't barbutes typically 15th century?This is a rather tricky question to answer. Barbute is a poorly-understood term and it is not entirely clear that the word was used in the 15th century to refer to a specific type of helmet; that being said, the helmet commonly called a Barbute has roots in the 14th century, but the helmet appropriate to the 1360s is not the same as the crested helmet of the mid-15th century. There is a type of pointed helmet similar to a bascinet, but with a flared bottom like the later barbute, which is fairly common in late 14th century Italian pictures - The frescoes from the 1370s by Altichiero at Padua are full of excellent examples, worn by foot soldiers. There are also extant examples in the Wallace Collection, the Metropolitan Museum, the Ethnological Museum at Athens, and in the Cleveland Museum. Some of these helmets have vervelle attachments for a camail (and would be hard to distingush from a bascinet when the camail was in place), but others do not, and the paintings show many worn with no camail or visor, but sometimes an additional neck-guard of brigandine-like plate protruding under the back of the helmet.
Registered: Feb 2001 | IP: Logged
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Fire Stryker
Admin & Advocatus Diaboli
Member # 2
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posted 04-25-2002 09:03 AM
Jef,The image Bob refers to can be found in the Salisbury Museum Medieval Catalogue Part 1 ISBN 0 947535 13 6. The Catalogue contains: Harness Pendants, Seals, Rings, Textiles, spurs (this is the section the painting shows up in), Arrowheads, Tiles, coins, etc... The one we have was printed in 1991 and edited by Peter and Eleanor Saunders. Pg. 78 The image is black and white but pretty clear. If I get a chance I will scan and post it. I have also seen the picture in color somewhere, but I don't think it was in any of our books. Jenn
Registered: May 2000 | IP: Logged
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Bertus
Member
Member # 308
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posted 04-25-2002 02:28 PM
Okay then Thanks!
I hope I'm not too much of a nuisance or pain in the ***, but i've got another thing on my mind that i can't figure out;
What were harness pendants for? I've read that they were worn by horses but also by subordinates on their liveries... what's the deal?Bertus -------------------- Bertus Brokamp
Registered: Apr 2002 | IP: Logged
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David Meyer
Member
Member # 245
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posted 04-30-2002 04:58 AM
Greetings -I posted a photo showing interesting early sabatons on the effigy of Gottfriend von Arnsberg at:
http://content.communities.msn.com/DavidsArmorSite/14thcenturyarmorpictures.msnw Again, you have to look through the grill to see the effigy, but it's only a minor annoyance. The greaves and sabatons are only about 1.5 inches thick, and the sabatons taper to about 0.25 inch points. I don't really understand how the sabatons could be very protective! Having a one inch section of plate on the center of your foot might protect it from a well aimed axe blow, but still. Perhaps it was simply to look stylish, or just an artist's interpretation of something else. Regards D
Registered: Nov 2001 | IP: Logged
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