I'm making 1361 AD sabatons (from the Battle of Wisby excavation), and frankly I can't see how turnshoes would fit in them. I believe that the sabaton and associated leather (they used leather for articulation) WERE the shoe in question.

Can you prove me wrong?

Can you prove me right?

Please (either way)?

Can someone post a picture or documentation or book title for shoes in sabatons in 14th Century Northern Europe (or elsewhere and elsewhen if you got it...).

I just can't see putting a shoe inside a shoe. Yes, I did that in the Army with my MOPP gear, but trust me...it's uncomfortable and much easier without having a shoe within a shoe.

Ideas?

Documentation?

Picture?

Unsubstantiated rumor that you heard from your uncle while he was drunk on fermented skunk oil?

-Aaron

PS: I was just planning on padding the bottom of the sabatons with (from bottom to top) 1. Chainmail, 2. 10 oz leather, and then 3. Three layers of sheepskin and some padding of cedar shavings. For combat on floors, I would just make a leather "slipper" over the chainmail so I don't tear up the floor.

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-Aaron Miaullis, SCAer with Authenticity Leanings (yes, it's not an oxymoron... :)maybe...)

It is pretty clear that you don't actually want mail on the soles of your feet. Edge & Paddock's Arms & Armor of the Medieval Knight, pg 25, illustrates a sculpture of a soldier from a 12th-century German abbey (the Chartes sabaton, btw, is on pg 83). He wears a mail chausse on one leg only, and the sole of the chausse is clearly not mail, but is laced underneath with a cord in a zigzag pattern. On his other foot he is not wearing a mail chausse, but a shoe and presumably a cloth chausse. I mention this just to show how the soldier has avoided putting mail on the soles of his feet. There is plenty of evidence for mail sabatons, and mail chausses and gussets worn under or over sabatons, but only covering the top of the foot as far as we can tell.

There are occasional pictures of men in armor whose shoe soles are visible. The one I can think of off hand is Paolo Uccello's Battle of San Romano pictures, c.1445. The panels in the Uffizi and in the National Gallery London give good views of the shoe soles- and very elegant soles they are too.

ffoulkes, The Armourer and his Craft, gives two 15th-century references which mention shoes of leather worn under steel sabatons, explicitly (See his appendix C, Treatise of Worship in Arms... 1434, and the passage "How a man schall be armyd... on pg 107. (ffoulkes Dover Reprint 1988). These descriptions include instructions for stitching knotted cords to the shoe sole to increase traction.

Admittedly I can't think of anything very specific to the period of Wisby, but I can't imagine that the wearing of shoes under sabatons was an innovation of the 15th century. Sabatons more like the Chartres example seem to turn up on effigies and in paintings well before the 1360s, and the Wisby sabatons are rather crude for their time, as are the coats-of-plates from that site. These sabatons are quite narrow, and don't cover the sides of the foot at all, but just form a "cap" on the top (and yes, they may well be articulated on leathers). They relate closely to the sabatons on the effigy of John D'Abernon, of c.1340. My guess is that he is wearing mail chausses over cloth chausses and shoes, and the plate sabatons over the mail. The attachment of the sabatons is not shown, but if we infer that the chausses are laced under the foot as in the example I mentioned earlier, laces could also be used to tie the sabaton on the chausse. I see no reason why he shouldn't be wearing shoes. The turnshoes of the period are not bulky enough to cause any problem they are really thin and close-fitting, and you really would want to have something between the mail and your foot. However, I think that with a thin leather shoe over thin woolen chausses, you wouldn't want any additional padding, sheepskins, etc. I would try to avoid bulk here as much as possible, to avoid looking like a Yeti. The look in the pictures is very trim, quite unlike army boots.

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-Aaron Miaullis, SCAer with Authenticity Leanings (yes, it's not an oxymoron... :)maybe...)

Part of the reason I'm aiming for leather articulation is that I can do it....steel-to-steel articulation still escapes me...

Thanks again,

Aaron

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-Aaron Miaullis, SCAer with Authenticity Leanings (yes, it's not an oxymoron... :)maybe...)

ok, here goes another one,

Ok, since good evidence has been pointed to some sort of footwear under sabatons, ranging from cloth/leather straps to well designed shoes.

IS there any evidence (any period) to indicate the opposite practice? Of having maille/plate soles? I recall reading in the AA board something about maille (possibly?) giving good traction, to my gut this doesnt strike as a period practice.

Anyone?

p.s. Funny to imagine a 11th c. crusader's maille chausses like modern women hose

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I was up at the Royal Armouries in Leeds yesterday, and one of the video clips actually shows one of their interpreters putting on early c16th armour.

The sabotons definitely go over normal shoes, and are held in place by overlaps at toe and heel plus attachment to greaves.

It's a little late, but it might help.