I know that Claude Blair says that arming coifs were stuffed with horsehair, but what was his source for the claim? Have other writers made the same claim? What is there sources for this information?

Is there any reference to any other form of amour padded with horsehair? I've seen references for cotton, wool and tow padding, but never horsehair.

A late 15th C. sallet from the Gwynn collection was just auctioned off by Christies a few weeks ago, and the catalog claims it has the "original canvas liner". Boy what I wouldn't give to take a look at the padding in there!!!

I know that horsehair padding in helmets has become newly trendy in some circles and with some adherents since the publication of the "Armour Bible". I freely admit my lack of knowledge about armour stuff, but using horsehair seems utterly ludicrous to me.

I figure someone here has the straight scoop, and I can't wait to be set on the right track, even if I'm wrong.

Thanks-

I don't own my own copy of Churburg, but the newest one Craig has in his collection, and from perusing, I know one of the original bascinet liners is padded with cow hair - not horse hair, but cow hair.

I asked the pointed question to the author of the 'Armour bible' some months ago, specifically to his methodology of wrapping a core of clipped hair with the longer mane and tail hair. He didn't have any documentation for the practise.

My contention was that clipping a coat is a modern practise, and currying out dead hair tends to be a dirty business. He had said at some point that the best hair for the purpose is fresh clippings after a horse is washed - can you document washing a horse as a historical practise in the Late Middle Ages? I can document currying, I don't think I've seen pictures of horses being washed until the late 17th century. As a horse owner, I would like to assume the horses were washed, but I'm pretty sure they aren't in other cultures like modern Mongolia.

All the references I have seen for stuffing padded jacks in the 15th c. (those that were stuffed instead of layers of linen) refers to tow, or linen rag. I have seen a referece for cotton in Italy or Outremer, for the 13th century I believe. The Howard Household accounts specify the construction for jacks that are to be purchased (I don't have it yet), and the Burgundian ordinances refer to a layered jack of linen, and the French ones of 1480 refer to layered ones - one type with the outer layer of deerhide. Dominic Mancini commenting on Richard of Gloucesters Yorkshire retainers entering London in 1483 with thigh length stuffed jacks, and a light sallet on ther heads. I dout he inquired what they were stuffed with.

Not to denegrate the author of the 'Armour Bible', I own a copy, and am very happy with it. It inspired me to attempt simpler forms of armour on my own (which is the only way I can build up a proper 'armour house' to outfit a retinue - keeping up with the Howards.

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Steve

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Brian Prices "The Techniques of Medieval Armour Reproduction.

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A horses' short hairs work their way through fabric like down does. All I can imagine is having a smelly, matted cap clamped on my head and being poked with the hair as it works its way out of the fabric and into my skull.

Blinding flash of insight- could they have felted the hair????

This is one of those things that becomes dogma even though it has a questionable source, and I wanted to ask so I could be informed on the subject.

Does Dave Key have any knowledge to add?

The Shona Rutherford-Edge (Education Officer at Sulgrave Manor) gives us "Some thoughts on Arming Doublets, Linings and Textile elements in Armour." This discourse was not complete, but very interesting. I hope she has it published. She is married to David Edge, curator of the Wallace Collection, who brought down 3 period arming caps. 2 from Salads and the last I'm not sure. One was stuffed with Beaver fur, one with Tow (a grass) and one horsehair. What was more interesting was that the one with horsehair was formed of 4 little triangular sections connected to a leather strap and with an eyelet at the top of the triangle. You use a drawstring to tighten the top together and get a period suspension.

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Joseph

Thanks for the post.

Do your notes indicate if the liners are contemporary to the helmets they were used with? Could any of them have been later replacements?

FYI, "tow" is the waste fiber left over from making linen.

Steve

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However Domininc Mancini does mention the stuffing for the Jacks ... tow (i.e. linen)

The Howards don't mention explicitly any stuffed armours. The linen armour often quoted as being for a Jack (by myself but only to illustrate the technique) is actually a Doublet de Fense which is layered linen and fustian. That this is not the same is illustrated by the presence of 'Welsh Jacks', 'Scottish Jacks' and 'Jacks'.
However that's not the point ... I'll have a look and se what I can find.

I certainly wouldn't dismiss horse hair ... it's used in a variety of places (including mixed with silk to produce an extrememly fine and hard wearing cloth for seat covers (this is modern BTW). And was/is used for packing/padding cushions etc.

Also Horse hair was used for leashes for greyhounds if I recall correctly.

Additionally the horse doesn't have to be alive when you take the hair! Horse skin was used for leather so the hair would be an obvious by-product.

Also there is at least one ref which for the life of me I can't remember which describes a horse as having a long mane 'like the Irish fashion' or thereabouts ... implying English horse manes were trimmed/cropped/hogged (English Cobs traditionally have their manes hogged).

I'll see what I can dig up.

However as with all things, I doubt that even if one lining did have horse hair they all did. The examples of Jacks has already illustrated the point of padding with tow, or layers of linen/fustian ... and of earlier Aketons padded with Cotton wool (at least that's what I recall Anne Laverick found in the Black Princes Aketon when she was working on it ... I must get a copy of the article someday!

There is no indication one way or the other about whether they were originals or replacements. I will see what I can find out.

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Joseph

quote:

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Originally posted by Dave Key:
and of earlier Aketons padded with Cotton wool (at least that's what I recall Anne Laverick found in the Black Princes Aketon when she was working on it

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I just checked Janet Arnold's article on it, and she believes the padding in the Black Prince's jupon is cotton wool.

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I hesitate to suggest that the first is the source of your 'rule' for horse hair.

Another source might be to look to the Armout from Rhodes ???

For the matter has anyone ever found any reference for using feathers for stuffing? Such a garment i imagine would get very hot, but maybe in colder climates that could be a bonus.

btw, Seems the witty fellows of old used anything they could get their sticky, lil'hands on to make their toys....maybe thats why i like'em so much.

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Does anyone have any input on the proper way that it should be attached to the helm?

Were arming caps always/ever attached to the helm, or did they just fit snugly underneath?

Also, how common was it to have a helmet with an attached inner liner vs. having a separate padded cap or hood (a la Embleton & Howe)for padding, without the attached straps that I see so often in modern copies?

How common were hoods under helmets, anyway?

It sure would be easier to have a separate cap or hood, and not have to do all the rivetting of inner straps, or is that the evidence -- the helmets that show the rivets are the ones with the attached liner? Might there have been attached pads inside, rather than straps? Am I rehashing something that's been gone over elsewhere, and I just don't know about it?

Like with most all other things, how it was done depended on the time frame that you are studying.

Bascinets often have a row of small holes along the edge of the helmet (between the vervelles and the edge of the helmet). These holes were used to stitch the liner in place.

As you move into the 15th century, it becomes the norm for helmets to have a row of rivets in the bowl of the helmet itself. These rivets held in place a leather strip that the liner was stitched to.

--James--

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quote:

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Originally posted by James Byngham:
Dealing with how helmet linings were attached--

Like with most all other things, how it was done depended on the time frame that you are studying.

Bascinets often have a row of small holes along the edge of the helmet (between the vervelles and the edge of the helmet). These holes were used to stitch the liner in place.

As you move into the 15th century, it becomes the norm for helmets to have a row of rivets in the bowl of the helmet itself. These rivets held in place a leather strip that the liner was stitched to.

--James--

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James,
Thanks for the response, I have another question.
I have a leather strip on the inside of the helm held in place by the vervails. Would that be where the base of the liner would be stitched to, or should the holes go through the helm itself?

If you're trying to really be authentic, the only way I can document attaching a bascinet liner (and there's lots of examples), is to have a line of very small holes just slightly in fom the edge of the helmet. The liner would be stitched to the helmet using these holes (and the leather the aventail is attached to covers the holes from view). I don't have any of my references here at work, but one image I can point you to is a bascinet in the Met.
Link to image

If you are trying to do this for the SCA, you're already a step ahead just by having a sewn in helmet liner instead of having blue foam peeking out. In this case, you could stitch the fabric liner to the leather strip you have attached.

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quote:

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Originally posted by James Byngham:
I suppose my answer to you depends on how accurate you are trying to be.

If you're trying to really be authentic, the only way I can document attaching a bascinet liner (and there's lots of examples), is to have a line of very small holes just slightly in fom the edge of the helmet. The liner would be stitched to the helmet using these holes (and the leather the aventail is attached to covers the holes from view). I don't have any of my references here at work, but one image I can point you to is a bascinet in the Met.
Link to image

If you are trying to do this for the SCA, you're already a step ahead just by having a sewn in helmet liner instead of having blue foam peeking out. In this case, you could stitch the fabric liner to the leather strip you have attached.

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James,

Thanks for the info. I have never used blue foam .

I have always sewn my own arming caps, and now I want to take it up another notch.

[ 08-03-2001: Message edited by: jcesarelli ]

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Joseph

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