For the mid c14th no real problems,
For the mid c15th no problems ... MSS, extant Sallets and referencs galore
For the Knightly degrees no real problem with Bacscinets etc.

But for the common archers .... I've got various anecdotal bits but does anyone have some good solid references???

Curious really.

I'm now loooking at later inventories for 'old' kit. We'll see where that leads me!

In the past I'd seen references to 'defences of wicker' having been worn. The problem is I always see this quoted, and have yet to see the primary source for it.

Regarding proper helmets, I would think that household archers would most likely be wearing bascinets without visors, even as they would be wearing more harness in general.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Yeoman:
How about a simple steel skullcap

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It's a thought but the trouble is that there isn't good evidence, that I'm aware of, for this.

Just because it's relatively simple to make, or looks basic, it doesn't make it necessarily correct.

However I did look back into the Fastolf Inventory which, although dateable to 1459 is for a veteran of Agincourt and does appear to include old-fashioned arms and armour alongside the newer Sallets.

For example ...

Item, xxiiij Cappes stuffyd withe horne and sum withe mayle.

So ... now I need to go back and look at Cap (rather than hat) patterns and consider the implications in the light of this.

Presumably leather caps with scales sewn on (be they horn or metal) can be seen in two sources I'm aware of off the top of my head - a late 14th c. manuscript of Froissart, and a second quarter of the 15th c. Byzantine wall painting in a church - both look identical. Reading Guy Laking, he mentions a leather cap with metal scales being in the Baron de Clossone (sp - I have to look it up) collection (this would be about 1920), and it was dated to the 15th c. I believe.

This isn't the same sort of thing as being "stuffed with", but it is the sort of defence I imagine for an archer (leather caps are mentioned in the oft quoted source as well as wicker ones). There is a mail 'cap' in an Italian collection that was a "Stuffed" coif, from the fabric fragments surviving at one time, from the late 14th c. I believe. The artists reconstructions I have seen make it a padded coif around a mail one.

Hope this helps.

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quote:

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Originally posted by chef de chambre:
leather caps are mentioned in the oft quoted source as well as wicker ones
Hope this helps.

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Otherwise I agree with what you've said

[ 05-16-2001: Message edited by: Ned ]

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Certainly I agree that civilian dress is the starting point.

Certainly there must have been a degree of equipment looting.

The problem I have is that beyond this point it is pure speculation. What I am looking for is evidence ... for example is there evidence for leather coifs?

Ragged I'd expect, but not necessarily because of who they were but because of what they'd been through ... a subtly different thing.

The question was asked by a major national museum ... both they and I were, and are, uncomfrtable with the current research as it plays to much on the 'great victory' of the poor, ragged, sick few vs the rich, finely arrayed many. It's great theatre but is it history ... maybe, maybe not.

All I know is I'm sure we can do better.

For example how many extant early c14th helmets are there ... almost all of those I've seen are either dated to the late C14th or to the mid c15th! Something somewhere is not quite right.

I don't have a copy of the Macejowski Bible illos at hand, but don't they show archers in (among other things)simple skull caps and kettlehelms? Then, in the mid to late 15th c. aren't there depictions of archers in virtually the same?

I know some of you historians are sometimes uncomfortable drawing conclusions without direct evidence. But it seems reasonable to me to theorize that if such helms were used by archers before and after the era in question, they were probably used during the "middle" era as well. Is there a problem with this kind of theory that I am missing?

[ 05-19-2001: Message edited by: Yeoman ]

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Did you miss my point, or are you just purposely being obtuse? Of course, the Mac Bible comes before---and the examples I have seen come after (i.e. altarpiece of Saint Ursala). My point is that the similar sorts of helmets are seen on "common" archers before 1415 and after that date.

I'm not saying that constitutes proof, but in the absence of other evidence, it seems like a decent theory. If a decent theory isn't "comfortable" for you (or David), I understand.

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