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Author Topic: Spears of 1300
Saverio
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Member # 63

posted 03-05-2001 04:01 PM     Profile for Saverio   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Can anyone tell me about spears (infantry and cavalry) of about 1300 (Italian if it matters). I'm looking for general dimensions of the heads and the lengths of the shaft.

I want to buy a spearhead that would be appropriate for both an infantryman and a knight if possible.


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chef de chambre
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posted 03-05-2001 04:12 PM     Profile for chef de chambre   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi Saverio,

I'll have to go take a look in Oakeshotte's "Archaeology of Weaponry" to find out for you. From the top of my head you are looking at a 'leaf' shaped blade in either case at this date and place, and 12' would probably be about right - though maybe a bit long for a lance. Fortunatly for you at this date there really isn't a heck of a lot differentiating the two.

There are probably a couple of people better qualified here to answer the question if you wait a bit. The Italian arms and armour books I have are unfortunately oriented a bit later in date, and of course are written in Italian, of which I don't speak a lick except for being able to say 'Ciao', 'Grazzi', & etc.... I wonder what might be in the Arsenal at Venice? Don't they have a museum there? Help somebody!

------------------
Bob R.


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Saverio
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posted 03-05-2001 05:48 PM     Profile for Saverio   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I'm thinking of ordering from Museum Replicas, but I'm not sure which spear would be the most fitting.

I can't seem to find the Leaf-Shaped spear on their website, but it's dimensions are
13.5" Overall 7.5" Blade
it also has a central ridge running down the length

The other is the Long Spear http://store.museumreplicas.com/cgi-bin/www11650.storefront/3aa4 1432006d4e642755d8f5a5060678/Product/View/1681
14.5 Overall 9" Blade

I hope you say the Long Spear, since it'll save me a few bucks

[This message has been edited by Saverio (edited 03-05-2001).]


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Saverio
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posted 03-05-2001 06:29 PM     Profile for Saverio   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
"There is some evidence from a the early to mid fourteenth century that the italians were fighting with spear and shield (think Zulu)."
I'm missing something here. I know the Zulu is an African people, but I don't know anything about their tactic.

"not particularly good though"
What part of them isn't particularly good?

Thanks
Dan


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chef de chambre
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posted 03-05-2001 06:45 PM     Profile for chef de chambre   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi Guys,

I just went looking for pictures, and I went to the closest reference I have (next to the computer) A&AoMK. Starting 100 years before - the sivler shrine of Charlemagne at Aachen (pg54)(1207) shows a preponderance of diamond shaped spearheads, with one lone leaf shaped blade.

pg 58, an illustration of the "lives of the two Offas" by Matthew Paris - English, 1250 shows three lance heads - two diamond, one leaf shaped.

pgs 60-61 leaves from the Maciejowsky bible (illus 1280's?) show all diamond shaped heads. Sir John D'Aubernon's brass on pg 64 - roughly of the same date shows a diamond shaped head.

Pg 67 - Sir Geoffrey Lutterals 'portrait' from the Lutteral Psalter (1340) seems to show a leaf shaped head

Pg 74, a detail from the Romance of Alaxander (1338-44) shows a mix of two diamond shaped heads with a leaf shaped head.

150 years too late for Saverio, The rout of San Romano (I've looked at it in My Rennaisance painting book as well) shows a preponderance of leaf shaped heads, a Flemish St. George painted 10 years earlier shows a diamond shaped head. From the 1450's, the tapestry of Hercules initiating the Olympics shows a healthy mix of lance head types.

As I flipped through the book, and looked at illustrations spanning 350 years, for the most part, the head types seemed mixed - now one style predominating, now another, but except in relatively few illustrations, they are mixed together rather than beiong entirely one or the other.

For what its worth....

------------------
Bob R.


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chef de chambre
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posted 03-05-2001 07:04 PM     Profile for chef de chambre   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi Peder,

In Italian warfare,the pavisers provide refuge for the crossbowmen to work from. The assegi is very much shorter and is intended to be used like a gladius. The spears the Italian civic militia carried are to ward off cavalry as well as engage in close combat. An assegi would be as useful as a pixie stick in close order to repel cavalry. You vever know how bloody short 7'-8' is until you kneel or lean over in a front rank to "prepare to recieve". 12' is uncomfortably short (I think thats the pike length used in Red Co due to portage problems). God help me, I'd want mine 16' and not an inch shorter.

I really don't see that much of a problem with a Museum Replicas spearhead - I have seen much worse. You can get a finer copy - if you want to stand in a long line and then pay a fair market wage for the job. This is an item I wouldn't have a problem with coming from that source.

------------------
Bob R.


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Saverio
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posted 03-05-2001 07:56 PM     Profile for Saverio   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Thanks for all of the help. I'll order the Long Spear as soon as my next paycheck comes, whenever that is (ah, the life of a student)

Dan


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Glen K
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posted 03-05-2001 10:16 PM     Profile for Glen K   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Arms and Armor used to offer excellent spearheads, but I honestly haven't checked lately to see if they still carry them. www.armor.com

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chef de chambre
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posted 03-05-2001 11:26 PM     Profile for chef de chambre   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi Peder,

But the classic Zulu technique is the shield smash and the underhand disembowling thrust (Pieter can tell you all about it when he gets back - spent years in the Zulu homeland, Uncle owns a spread there and his first language was Zulu - forgotten now unfortunately. The Assegi can be weilded in an overhand or undrhand grip with equal ease. That is an overhanded hoplite stab.

Since "average" Medieval man was 5'4"-6" tall, then by your reckoning those spears would be shorter still. Thing to keep in mind being the primary flaw of the Medieval artist is lack of perspective, and items like spears are compressed to fit the scene. That short a spear length doesn't fit with the known tactics of the Italian civic militia, and conversely, if a Hoplite can weild a 12' spear in an overhand thrust there is no reason why an Italian militiaman can't as well.

A good place to start study of Medieval tactics is Phillipe Contamines general study on Medieval Warfare. Avoid at all costs the West Point series on Ancient and Medieval Warfare - the work needs major revision to say the least.

------------------
Bob R.


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Reinhard von Lowenhaupt
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posted 03-05-2001 11:31 PM     Profile for Reinhard von Lowenhaupt   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Bob's right on avoiding the West Point series. All of their info. seems to be derived from a sense of modern warfare, not at all within the context of medieval practice.
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