I'm still looking at Armours for my impression. (1471 Englishman in Burgundian service) The Flemish St. George (AAMK pg.110 ) was mentioned in a previous post as an example of a Italian export style armour with a sallet and bevor, which is what I think I'd like. The more I look at this pic, the more I like it. Am I safe to go with this, or a similar harness? I know that religious art, especially the sort portraying fantastic events (St. George is slaying a DRAGON after all) is often, and rightly so, subjected to great scrutiny due to the fantastic elements and the habits of artistic license. I would love to think that this image represents a correct harness as I'm quite fond of it, unfortunately I lack the knowledge and resources to make an argument for it's existence and use in the field. The only things, in truth, that I personally have as evidence are the following quote:

"Here one finds armours being produced of a hybrid form blending aspects of both Germanic and Italian armours (snip)
The plates of these armours were usualy fluted, sometimes cusped and rather spikey after the fashion of Germany, but the pauldrons, tassets and couters are of Italian form"

Which sounds a-lot like the harness pictured. And the Italian export sallet on AAMK pg.98 Which bears an uncanny resemblance to the one good 'ol George has perched on his gourd. If you haven't already guessed, Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight is the only really good resource I have at my disposal which I can look at directly.

Now, supposing I can use this or a similar harness, what do you think the left arm looks like? Do you suppose that the left pauldron would or could be sporting the supplemental guardbrace? How about the couter, supplemental defenses there as well? Do you think the gaunts would match, or would the left hand be one of those with the single long metacarpal plate? Or would this be a symetrical harness with matching pauldrons, couters, ect.? I ask this because I am fond of the asymetrical look of the Millanese, but enjoy the fluted areas in the St. George image. The above quote seems to indicate that such a combination could be possible. Then again, I could be reaching to find my "ideal" harness which never would have existed.

Any and all comentary, criticism (constructive only please ), and ideas are welcome and encouraged

Bob Here. The nice thing about Flemish art of the mid to late 15th c. is the artists took great pains to detail the picture for the delight of the viewer, even, in many cases painting ref;lections into mirrors and other reflective surfaces in the backgrounds. God knows they hadn't gotten perspective down, or fluid natural motion - but they did concentrate on the details of familiar objects.

When you run into trouble is when the artist is painting foriegn subjects, or allegorical figures. St. George, however, is pictured as a Burgundian man at arms, as obviously St. George is a Burgundian at heart! (He was the adoptive saint of Charles the Bold, who took him as his own). I would say in this case, for the reasons I mentioned, you are safe at looking at that particular harness as being representative of what a Burgundian 15th c. man at arms would wear (or an Englishman, for that matter - the English imported harness primarily from Northern Italy and Flanders).

The parts of that harness that are typically represented as being for the Flemish or English market are (working from memory as I don't have the picture in front of me) the extra side tassets, and the symetrical largish couters. I believe the suit in the painting has gardbraces on the pauldrons, but I can't vouch for the guard of the vambrace - I think the representations I have seen of these suits with the larger couters don't usually have them. I seem to remember the left gauntlet having the larger metacarpal plate of a single piece extending to the first articulation over the knuckles.

The Ceasar Tapestries apparently made for Charles the Bold show the "Romans" in near identical harness (using Burgundians as models presumably). I would say the only "unusual" part of that particular harness is the plume holder on the upper re-enforce of the visor - usually sallets of that sort are pictured with orbs.

To the best of my knowledge, you would be VERY safe with that particular harness as a model. There is some evidence in the form of surviving atrwork and a few extant examples, of native Flemish harness having sallets and kettlehats who's bowls terminate in points, are "onion domed", have faceted sides - sometimes "swirled", and having in some cases rondels over the hinge of the visor. From Schillings Chronicles and an extant harness from Grandson, great bascinets were uncommonly popular in Burgandy as compared to the rest of Europe at this point as well.

I hope this helps. No doubt Jeff or Dave can point out if I err.

1. You are chosing to represent an Englishman in Burgundian service my first question is "What is your degree?" (i.e. what social status are you representing?) and my second is "What is your role within the Burgundian army?" (i.e. of whom are you a servant and what is their status?)
Both of these will have more influence on the harness you are wearing than anything else as they will largely dictate the equipment you have.

2. Have you looked at the funerary effigies of Englishmen from precisely this period. They are probably the best starting point for a truely English representation.

As Bob says harness is clearly evident in import records and Milanese (not Italian)does crop up in texts when a specific type is mentioned. But generaly the source is hard to guess ... Lombard merchants could come to England from Italy via Flanders and all you see on the Import record is the owner of the cargo with no indication of the origin of the actual cargo.

I'll also just throw a wildcard into the pot ... historians views on imported harness ... it is assumed that this is armour rather than horse tack ... not always a wise assumption!

Another thing to consider ... and I haven't really looked into it but I've mentioned this in the past and it occurred to me again the other day whilst watching Ice Hockey (the different body armour based on role - attack, defence, netminder). We generally associate styles and types of armour with location and dates based on a few extant examples. This may not be the best/only way of doing things.

Generally the harness was designed to fulfill a specific role and this role changes according to your style of fighting (for example that's why Tournament armour changes so much from field armour ... With a tournament tilt safety is more important than mobility ... in the field the equation is more difficult to define) or the weapon you use. Yes, styles were regionalised and the manufacturing processes/skills do influence the results but it's not the only influence

But how does this influence your choice of harness ?

Well consider this ... are you fighting on foot (a typically English style) or mounted? I just glanned through the Beauchamp chronicles at the harness worn there and the harness worn in the tournaments is different to that worn in the battles, but also there are a large number of well armed men with no paldrons. A quick scan through and it looks as though those with paldrons also have lance rests on the breastplate ... this is not definitive .... there are more where you can't see and it was a quick look.

But where does that leave you?

Does a Flemish painting of a top of the range harness worn by a mounted man fit your character?

If you're spending the money on the harness you buy the best armour for what you do. Yes fashion is infulential but within certain contexts.

Any decisions? I'd be curious to hear what you've decided and why?

1: I shall be representing an Englishman of good birth (perhaps a middle or youngest son?) who is seeking to advance his position and experience through military services to an English ally.(thanks for that one Bob ) I've yet to complete the research on specifics such as Family, brothers, sisters, childhood, etc. but I have a decidedly Yorkist lean. As to my place in the Burgundian army proper, again, I've yet to complete the research of the specifics of the chain of comand above myself. I know that I will be portraying a mounted man at arms, and eventually the chef de chamber of my own LH company when it gets off the ground. (I guestimate 3 years before I am satisfied with my own personal kit, experience, and knowledge in the area) I believe that what I have decied upon at this point makes a "top end harness worn by a mounted man" an appropriate choice.

2: I have a few examples of English funary effigies that I can look at as exemples of this general type of harness. I will not, at this point, even attempt to put names to them as the images in question are 100 miles away from me at present and I will no doubt muck up which name goes with which effigy. I will, however give descripions of them:

The first depicts what is quite obviously a traditional Milanese with the exeption of the tassets and the lames of the poleyns which look to be of the "fluted and somewhat spikey" persuasion.

The second is almost identical to the harness in the St. George image, though there is no helmet pictured. The couters and Paldrons are symetrical.

The third is also like the St. George image but the left pauldron looks to be sporting a gaurdbrace. The couters apear to be symetrical . This image is of poor quality so it is difficult to make an acurate judgement.

The last is strange, the leg harness looks to be "fluted and somewhat spikey". The arm harness is symetrical, but the couters are HUGE. It almost looks like each arm is sporting a "guard of the rebrace" like the one on the left arm of the Churburg Milanese that is usually shown as a textbook example of the milanese style.

Unfortunately the helmets are either not present or are shown in such a manner that it is difficult to tell what they are. The gauntlets provide the same trouble, mostly because the figures are shown with their hands in the "praying" position sans gauntlets. I looked to the Flemish St. Goerge as an example as the image shows the harness complete with sallet and bevor as well as gauntlets, though it is difficult to see the left hand.

The quote is taken from a dissertation on 15th c. armours that was written by an aquaintence of mine several years ago, he attributed it to David Edge. I believe it is located in AAMK but I don't have the book in front of me to be sure. I shall check it and let you know when I find out.

Hmmmmm it appears that this thread is rapidly heading towards belonging on the Impressions list.