the rest come from us being at SCA events...they see us and decide we look cool and that's it . of the half dozen or so active members most are SCA people who "saw the light"

quote:

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Originally posted by hauptfrau:
More thoughts on this subject.....
I read the story and it hit me- maybe the same thing applies to living history! Maybe people who are interested in what we do are scared off by thinking “Oh, they look so perfect, my stuff could never look like that so they probably wouldn’t want me”. They see the kit as intimidating and think they have to be at that level to join up. Maybe they don’t believe us when we say “we’re here to help”.

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Part of the problem is the image perpetuated by the LH community. How many times have you visited a groups web site and seen snide or derogatory comments about other groups such as the SCA? While I personally understand why such comments are made, this "holier-than-thou" attitude is not particularly beneficial to recruiting, especially when a great portion of recruits will be coming from the SCA or other similar organizations.

Not too long ago, I visited the Red Company's site and looked at some of the requirements for event participation. Most of my kit was specifically mentioned as banned. :-(

It kind of gave me the impression that if I wasn't "perfect" than my presence wasn't to be tolerated. It wasn't the friendliest welcome I've had and I could imagine how it would turn some people off. To put it bluntly, first impressions are everything, and alot of LH groups don't do well with this.

While I think there are also a couple of other factors at stake which I'll save for a future rant, I definately think that the attitude presented has alot to do with how we're perceived.

Since Geoffrey was very specific in his comments, I thought it useful to go have a look at what the Red Company website actually says. I'm not sure, but we may be the only group who has a long list of " dos and don'ts" on the web, so this will be a great opportunity to fine-tune problem areas.

I went through the event guidelines and costume guidelines, and I pulled out any mention of the SCA or other groups, and references to what's OK or what was banned.

I pulled out references as they occured, starting with the event guidelines, then the costume guidelines. I pulled out entire sentances so they could be worked on, as I didn't think snippets would be very useful.

---from the RedCo. website--

• This is not intended as a dig against any other historically inspired group or program, but our events are not like SCA, Adria, Renaissance Faire or any other group- style event.

• All clothing, tentage and equipment must be documentable and typical of the period. This requirement applies equally to jewelry and accessories (no neo-pagan stuff, Ren Faire favors etc.).

• There will be no SCA/Adria/ Renfaire style combat or armor.

• All characters should be someone who would plausibly be found in England or the Continent in the 1470s. Soldiers or camp followers should be predominantly English, Flemish, German, or Italian. The civilians should be entirely English. There will be only a few of the upper classes present, and those will be prearranged people portraying the knight and his train. Everyone else should portray a common soldier, a low born camp follower, an artisan, a peasant, a yeoman or a member of the clergy as a Priest or Friar.

• Only period appropriate canvas tentage in a suitable style is acceptable at events. There are no exceptions for RVs or modern tents.

• To be suitable, a merchant must have all sales staff in appropriate costume, all tentage and furnishings must be historically correct, and all wares must be correct for 15th Century England (i.e. no mystic runes, no modern books or CDs, no Celtic Revival jewelry, no dragon goblets or canes with dragon claw mystic crystal handles etc.). Nothing but the modern money changing hands should be unsuitable to the period. Vendors who sell everyday things like articles of clothing, metal findings, suitable table ware, weapons and the like are especially welcome. Please note that almost nothing that is customarily sold at a Renaissance Faire, and very little that is sold at an SCA event would meet these criteria.
   

• Your outer garment should be of wool. If you use a blend, be sure it looks like wool (i.e. it doesn't shine in the light). Please resist the urge to trim your garments, as there was little or no trimming used in 15th C. designs.

  
  

• Please Note: Nothing worn at a Renaissance Faire is appropriate. This includes peasant attire, noble, middle class, or even Landsknecht: none of it will work for 15th Century. Most of what one sees at an SCA or Adria event will not be appropriate. The standard cotton-poly "T-Tunic", black jeans, engineer boots and a really long belt does not meet our requirements.

• Belts are very narrow, usually less than an inch wide, with a simple frame buckle. A tail of more than 10"-12" is unacceptable.

• Most of the jewelry one can purchase from most vendors is wrong. Specifically to be avoided are "Celtic Revival", Pagan symbols like Pentagrams & Green Men, non-heraldic dragons and other beasts, and Viking stuff (correct for the 10th C. but not the 15th). Also, Ren Faire style "favors" should be done without. If in doubt, don't wear it.

• Rosaries were very common, but modern rosaries, with Christ crucified and little black beads, were not.
   
  
• Elastic dancer's tights or Spandex tights are not acceptable.

• Shoes: Historically correct shoes are strongly encouraged, but you can get away with most "Wild Oats" styles of shoe or boot, as well as "Minetonka" mocassins with the fringe removed. "Bald Mountain" boots, and Tandy's knee high laced Indian boots are not acceptable.
  

I may have missed it, but I didn't see the word "banned". I did see lots of "strongly encouraged", "strongly discouraged", and "acceptable" or "unacceptable". Apparently, some of these words have been interpreted as "banned".

While I certainly admit that the SCA is mentioned, I didn't pick up on any "snide or derogatory comments" or a "holier-than-thou" attitude. I thought that the other groups were there for comparison's sake alone. Maybe comparisons are not as useful as I thought? I thought it was a good thing to have them there as a frame of reference.

Geoffrey goes on to say "It kind of gave me the impression that if I wasn't "perfect" than my presence wasn't to be tolerated."

His comments are interesting, because we also have this disclaimer in the same guidelines section:
 
"What follows are very basic guidelines. Please note that there is much latitude in them for the exercise of good judgment. The spirit we wish to foster is one of enthusiasm to get it right, rather than a barracks lawyer attempt to fine loopholes into which you can squeeze something that might be wrong, but which you would like to wear."

and this in the membership section:

"Membership in the Company is open to anyone willing to invest the time and effort required of an "underwear-out" reenactment group. We do have minimum gear requirements for participation, but many of these can be easily procured or built with some guidance from our experienced members. We gladly and enthusiastically support new recruits and members!"

We put the second bit in there specifically to encourage people who might not have the right kit, as we wanted them to know that we are user-friendly and supportive of our recruits.

What I find most fascinating about Geoffrey's comments is that the event guidelines were not written by anyone in the Red Company. These guidelines were written by Walter Nelson, a member of the Yeoman Archers for the first 15th C. Living History event in California which was held at Riley's Farm 3-4 years ago. Walter runs a living history group in LA and has a strong, many year background with the Renaissance Pleasure Faire. He's never been an SCA member, although he has participated with the Archers at several SCA events. We thought his guidelines were more unbiased than anything Jeff or I could have written, so we went with his text, just changed "LAHA" to "The Red Company"!!!

Especially since I didn't write it, I am not married to any of the text, and am very open to constructive criticism. Perhaps with some objective input, we could come up with a way to word things and get the point across without being offensive. Jeff and I really want the Red Company to grow, and are very willing to volunteer the RedCo. as a guinea pig in this editing process, so that other living history groups can benefit.

I'll look forward to your suggestions!

Gwen

Welcome to FireStryker. OK - I will bite.

quote:

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Part of the problem is the image perpetuated by the LH community. How many times have you visited a groups web site and seen snide or derogatory comments about other groups such as the SCA? While I personally understand why such comments are made, this "holier-than-thou" attitude is not particularly beneficial to recruiting, especially when a great portion of recruits will be coming from the SCA or other similar organizations.

---

Geoffrey - how many Medieval LH group websites have you visited? Here on the board I will name three companies for you - "The Red Company", "The Company of the Wolfe Argent", and "La Maisiene". Have you checked out our websites? If so, can you point to any snide remarks about the SCA since you mention the society in particular? Many members of "The Red Company" got their start in the SCA - some are still members. Although Wolfe Argent had no SCA members initially, about half of the Company membership currently were, or are still active members of the SCA. "La Maisienne" operates largely at SCA events, and the majority of members are members of the society. I would wager over half of the members of this Forum are members of the SCA - several of them rank amongst the peerage.

I am not sure that the majority of Medieval re-enactors in future will come out of the Society, although a number obviously will. One of the factors that has kept traditional re-enactors from exploring Medieval re-enactment is the SCA was the only venue for this sort of thing in the US. Somebody coming from a traditional re-enactment background is usually taken aback by the SCA's public face - the mish-mash of time periods portrayed together, and an essentially non-existant minimum standard of authenticity. This is one of the Societies greatest strengths and at the same time greatest weaknesses. It is a readily available format across the entire country, and anyone can play with minimal effort. The time range is so broad thnat it can appeal to most. The downside is that very few people are playing the same game, and as an entity the society can make serious efforts at re-enactment difficult for members.

quote:

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Not too long ago, I visited the Red Company's site and looked at some of the requirements for event participation. Most of my kit was specifically mentioned as banned. :-(

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In this case, should I feel offended that my helmet does not meet the standards put forward by the society for participation in heavy combat? Pehaps I should take offence that most events would not allow the presence of my horses, and the few that do would make me wear a modern riding helmet instead of a well padded Medieval helmet? If you wish to participate in a game, you must meet the requirements of that game. Every Re-enactment group I know of would be delighted to help kit you out so you could participate with them - either pointing you in the direction to purchase appropriate equipment, helping you make the basic gear, or loaning you appropriate items to play.

By definition, you cannot participate in living history events with a relaxed standard of authenticity, and still have it a living history event. My personal puzzlement that putting forward an enforced minimum standard is seen often as a personal attack or slight against other groups.

I certainly do not take offence at your commentary, because it is a truthful account of your perception, and in telling us this you are helping us. I personally do not see why creating an environment where Medieval re-enactments can be held with the same standards of authenticity as other historical periods (ACW, American Rev,F&I war...) is offensive to people.

------------------
Bob R.

We sent out a flyer pretty much like the one I posted on FS a couple of days ago, which outlined the standards for the event, and directed people to the website.

As the event approached, I fielded at least 2 dozen emails and phone calls asking about "the Faire" that was to happen. I politely explained that it wasn't a Faire, it was a historical reenactment and tried to explain the difference. I clearly remember one fellow's call; he kept going on and on about our "Faire", and I kept correcting him that this wasn't going to be a Faire, and it certainly wasn't going to be the Fantasy Faire that used to happen in North SD County in previous years. Even though the fellow kept saying he understood, I was left with the distinct impression that not only hadn't he understood, he hadn't even *heard* me.

On the day of the event, about a dozen people showed up in various costumes. I thought the little kids in their Halloween princess costumes were adorable, and I felt sort of bad for the teenage girls in their Faire "wench" costumes. I found it fascinating that invariably, they kept trying to pull the fronts of their bodices up to gain more coverage.

A group showed up in tunics, engineer boots and long belts, and they stood outside camp looking very displeased. They never actually came into camp, they just stood on the outside and looked unhappy. They finally ate their picnic lunch at a nearby table and left.

One fellow in full Museum Reps kit (poufy shirt, spandex leggings, rapier, bag cap) came over to a friend of mine and started complaining loudly that he had been decieved. He said that he had seen an advert for a Faire on this site on this day, and had even spoken to someone on the phone who had assured him that it was a "living history event". He ended his discourse by telling my friend "I don't know what this is, but it sure isn't a Faire". I suspect this was the fellow I spoken with on the phone.

The point of the story is, we feel damned if we do, and damned if we don't. If we describe the requirements for participation in detail, we're told it's exclusionary, offensive, unreasonable and god knows what else. If we don't invite members of other groups, we're exclusionary, elitist and have a ""holier-than-thou" attitude"".

I'd really like to understand where Geoffrey is coming from, but I have to admit at this moment I'm at a complete loss, and feel more than slightly frustrated.

Gwen

For example:
<<Nothing worn at a Renaissance Faire is appropriate. >>

Perhaps a better way to phrase it might say Clothing commonly worn at commercial RenFairs are not appropriate? If Bob went down to King Richards in "approved" clothing... is it no longer appropriate? I know what you mean, but does everyone realize this?

Before I go any further, let me introduce myself a bit. My name is Geoff Schemel, I've been an on and off (mostly off) participant in various recreation groups over the past ten years and have slowly grown into a staunch LH supporter in spirit (but not in kit, yet). Personally, I'd love to see the LH movement in America explode with overwhelming success.

The point I was trying to make wasn't necessarily targetted at Gwen, and it wasn't that any particular website was bad or evil. What I was trying to explain was the perception one gets from a group (now watch me dig my hole a bit deeper).

From a marketing standpoint, one should be extremely careful about how they make their first impression, especially on impersonal mediums such as the internet. It's very easy to come off as stand-offish or elitist and a person getting that impression is likely to click somewhere else without giving you a chance to clarify your meaning.

Remember when communicating, it's not what you say but what people hear you say that matters.

In the instance of the Red Company's site, for someone used to t-tunics, engineer boots, sweat pants, and a 6' belt, it could be perceived as insulting. A person may be interested in migrating from historical-fiction to LH, but get turned off. What I would recommend is that instead of stating standards, which can seem tough and/or expensive to meet, (and therefore a turn-off) and stating what is not allowed (and potentially insulting), perhaps we could put a positive spin on it?

Something to the effect of: "Due to our high standards of historical authenticity, we prefer to consult with each prospective member before they join in order to get them up to speed as quickly as possible while minimizing expense. If you're interested or have any questions, please contact us at your convenience."

Now if they're interested, they'll contact you. Once they contact you, you can pitch them in a more personal manner that addresses their concerns while reducing the risk of indirectly pushing them away because of the way they interpreted your website.

The thing to remember is that sometimes too much information can be a bad thing. I mean heck, if the army had told me the truth about field chow, I probably wouldn't have joined!

Another thing that you may wish to consider is ways to stress just how easy it is to get involved in LH groups. Do you provide loaner clothing and kit to members? Do members get discounts from Black Swan Designs? Show them that getting started is not the monumental task they assume it to be and they just might be more willing to give it a try.

Anyway I hope this helps clarify things a bit and that I didn't ramble on too much...

Geoff

actually, I agree with Geoffrey at least in general theory.

when your website or promo material is stated in the strictly negative "you cant" it can be offputting. It is natural to want to clearly illustrate the "no no" list with examples of what bugs you. For me its belly dancing jewelry with elizabethan clothing, but thats' my personal baggage...

Thing is, there is ALWAYS going to be some poor schmo who happens to be wearing exactly that outlandish outfit you're using as an example of what not to do.

do we care? I mean, really, if the guy is so sensitive, is he really cut out for this game?

I think its important not to totally alienate Mr Ttunic and Big Belt Boy. Sure, they may never actually want to play in WOR Land, but when Martin Newbie comes along and asks BigBelt Boy about those nicely dressed people over there, what will BigBeltBoy say? That they're elitist snobs?

Instead of listing in promo material what ISNT allowd, our philosophy up here is to focus on what IS.

From la maisnie's website....

All clothing will be appropriate to the middle class or servants of Antoine, reflecting the year and the place. The La Maisnie principle is that what you wear under your clothes is your own business. but if it shows at all, or affects the drape and shape of the garment, it better be right.

Fabric: the fabrics they would have used are wool, linen and perhaps a very small bit of silk. It is strongly encouraged that you also use these fabrics. We understand that they can be hard to find/afford sometimes. If necessary cotton (or preferably linen/cotton blends) can be substituted for linen as long as you stick with an appropriate weave and color. Similarly, if you want to wear a wool substitute or blend as long as we can't tell it's fake, that's your choice. Bear in mind however that synthetic fibers tend to be very uncomfortable. No prints. Brocades are expensive, and so should be limited to fancy pin on sleeves, etc.

Women: underdress/chemise of white linen (at a minimum, a simply cut T- shaped garment will work.); overdress/gown of linen or wool either the short sleeved lace up, long sleeved lace up, 10-gore or bocksten cut for lower classes, stockings should be knee length of woven linen or wool, they are tied up with garters, either buckeled leather or else simple strips of wool, linen, etc). Some kind of head covering must be worn at all times: a turban, or other kerchief wrap or coif, again of white linen. Optional: coat or overgown of wool (cut as appropriate) with simple buttons of fabric or metal or wood or bone; hood of wool or linen; mittens of wool; belt (1/2"-1" wide) with appropriate buckle

Men: shirt of white linen (again for a minimum the bocksten tunic will work); doublet of wool or linen (waist long for fancy Italian boys, hip length for most boys, mid thigh or longer for older men and lower classes); hose should be of woven linen or wool tied to the doublet or braes can be with crotch, or the out of date chauses (two separate legs); braies or undershorts (white linen). Some kind of head covering should be worn at all times: a coif or a woolen cap or hat of some kind. Optional: coat of wool (see above); hood; mittens; belt
When in doubt on an item please just ask if something is acceptable.

In the encampment: --nothing inappropriate for 1466 Bruges will be allowed in the open camp. Anything inappropriate must be left in your tent with the door closed (file boxes, cell phones, Rubbermaid tubs, tent bags, etc). This includes entertainments and conversations.
These are the rules and goals as of January 1999. Naturally, we try to improve over time.

Visual Goals
Everything outside a tent in the camp area should look like it belongs in 15th Flanders. Within your own tent just keep it out of sight if it's not appropriate. i.e. if you keep everything in your tent in big plastic Tupperware tubs keep your door closed so no-one in camp has to see them. Some of us try to maintain visual standards inside our tents too, but as of this writing that's still a personal choice.

again, this is just how we choose to do it up here. Your mileage may vary .

and please realise we STILL get the "elitist snob" lable, but usually from folks who only hear about us from other folks.

"ways to stress just how easy it is to get involved in LH groups."- Any suggestions?

"Do you provide loaner clothing and kit to members?" - We have the info that there is loaner kit available for new members and guests in several places on the website. Any suggestions where I can put it so people actually SEE it?? That info is there, but apparently it's hidden.

Do members get discounts from Black Swan Designs? - A sticky question. Since you understand marketing, you'll understand that I can't really advertise that RedCo. members get a 20% discount or I'd be flooded with "new recruits" who want to take advantage of a sale....but I will say I give out a lot of free stuff to our guys simply because it seems stupid to me to have them in a bad shirt when I have 40 new shirts in a box at the shop! I trade for yard work, house painting, computer work, pathetic looks, etc. but that's Secret Red Company Information™

"Show them that getting started is not the monumental task they assume it to be " - I think this question came up somewhere else, but we never did get a good answer. Any thoughts on a new approach????

I have a client coming for a fitting at 1PM, so I can't do any major editing until this afternoon or evening. However, I'm soliciting for comments and advice, and I'll use that information to make changes. Please weigh in with your words of wisdom, and I'll get out the scissors and tape!!!

We want the Red Company to grow, so at this point I'm willing to try just about anything reasonable ....

A double message is being inadvertantly presented.

First you work to explain what stands your events apart (and some people won't get it no matter how hard you try).

You start listing a kit. Then put in an absolute:
<<Please Note: Nothing worn at a Renaissance Faire is appropriate. >>

If Bob R., went to a faire in his clothing, would it no longer be appropriate? What about the SCA peer who researched and created appropriate clothing?

I think keeping high standards must be done but that the public outreach presentation needs to be softened to say something like [Clothing represented at commercial RenFairs are usually not historically correct].

OR (brainstorm!) You create a marveloulsy amusing series of Webpage ads. Not banners, but rather like a full page color spread in a magazine create a new one for every quarter or month and rotate them.

When I get home, I will post two examples of what I am talking about. Show folks that what you are doing is FUN and informative, and achievable.

1. Your initial contacts should center around the good things surrounding your group, how much fun you have, etc. Once they're interested you can bring them closer in to the fold.

2. Publish an events list and invite people to attend. This shouldn't only include public demonstrations (where you may not wish to have their help just yet), but also informal events such as musters where people can stop by and check things out without any committment. (Plus you get to check them out as well).

3. Make it easy for people to join. The easier it is to join a group, the more likely it is they'll join. Have plenty of loaner gear, etc.

4. Once a person shows enough interest in joining your group, make sure you have an understanding with them so everyone knows each other's expectations.

5. Your advertising media should only serve two purposes, to bait the hook, and cause brand recognition. Don't give too much information up front as it can scare people away. The trick is to get them to contact you for more information and nothing more. It is better to present the details in a more personal manner than a static website or brochure. (Like when they stop by to check out your muster).

6. Highlight any screen, film, book, newspaper experiences that you have had. This will only help add to the glamour and excitement of the group.

7. Phase people in slowly. Give them time to adjust. If you push them too far too fast, they might get uncomfortable.

8. Try not to make negative comments about other groups, these can be looked upon poorly. Instead, try to give these differences a positive spin.

9. The more public exposure you have the more recruits you'll find. Get out and canvas a bit.

10. Always try to leave things on a good note, even with the nitwits. A little networking never hurt anybody. :-)

11. Make sure people know you are looking for new members. This should almost go without saying, but sometimes you'll need that big flashing banner! :-)

12. When new people are interested, go out of your way to be friendly with them. Small group dynamics can be tough on newbies who don't feel like they are part of the team. Try to avoid this whenever or wherever possible.

quote:

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Regia Anglorum is a society dedicated to the authentic re-creation of life in Britain in the 100 years prior to the Norman Conquest. People of all ages, shapes and sizes join Regia for all manner of reasons and Martin came to us with no greater pretension than to be a good swordsman. Five years in the society has turned him into the epitomy of the Norman Lord. All those things you can see above and more. His interest led him to buy his first horse, and then a second, much like a Norman knight would originally have done. All members start with a spear and shield just as he did, but where you go from there is anybody's guess. Perhaps you could become the first Norman Lord to be known for his kindness and charitable works...

For details on how to join, call our Membership officer (snip) Details of our other activities can be found in the listings.

LOGO and address info and web url.

---

I think it is pretty effective marketing piece. It is very simple and to the point and gives you some minor historical detail about Normans.

Yes. The sole purpose of the advertising medium is to get them to contact you. Once you've got some personal interaction, it's much easier to communicate and dispell any misconceptions. Once they're in contact, you want to get them involved. Once they're involved you want to get them joined up officially.

"ways to stress just how easy it is to get involved in LH groups." - Any suggestions?

I'd first recommend that you make sure people KNOW that you're looking for recruits. I'd also dedicate some space to dispelling myths. You know the ones, the ones that state that accuracy is too expensive or that accuracy is boring, etc.

Of course, once you're in personal contact with a potential recruit, this gets to be alot easier.

"Do you provide loaner clothing and kit to members?" - We have the info that there is loaner kit available for new members and guests in several places on the website. Any suggestions where I can put it so people actually SEE it?? That info is there, but apparently it's hidden.

Try creating a special recruiting page. Something to the effect of "Uncle Sam wants YOU!" but with a period flair. Something like:

Richard the III is looking for interested parties to assist him on his campaign to defend the throne of England. He is willing to supply all necessary materials until such time that you can provide your own.

Or something like that. I found a cool recruiting add, I'll try to find it

Do members get discounts from Black Swan Designs? - A sticky question. Since you understand marketing, you'll understand that I can't really advertise that RedCo. members get a 20% discount or I'd be flooded with "new recruits" who want to take advantage of a sale....

How about advertising the discount for those who've been in the group for a year or more?

but I will say I give out a lot of free stuff to our guys simply because it seems stupid to me to have them in a bad shirt when I have 40 new shirts in a box at the shop!

And here I thought the dirty old shirts were period! LOL!

We want the Red Company to grow, so at this point I'm willing to try just about anything reasonable ....

The client is gone, your ideas are priceless and I can't wait to get down to ripping apart the website and starting over. This is going to take more than a few hours, I can tell!!!

Thanks to everyone for their input. I'd especially like to thank Geoffrey for the time you're investing in this, and your very perceptive and useful comments. I have to admit I was feeling more than a bit hostile toward you last night after reading your first post, abd I'm glad you stuck around to contribute.....and I'm glad I didn't storm off in a self-righteous snit!

Off to the mill to write copy!!

I'd like to know if I'm on the right track. I started with that section because the consensus seemed to indicate that was where most of the offensive stuff was. Jeff and I feel we need to rewrite the bad stuff that's already up first, then move along to the new additions.

I already have ideas for advertisements!

Comments welcome on this one too!

By the end of the brochure it has morphed into a Members' Handbook of sorts, going so far as to say something , "Before you joined, here's how you felt about our organization, now that you're a full-fledged member..." Just a little rhetorical sleight-of-hand... ;>

I get used to it. One of these days I'll learn how to communicate without pissing everyone off!

We are glad you stayed, even when we "dog-piled" on you.