page 138 Fingerloop braids.
listed as extremely common from late 12th to early 15th centuries. There are also sections on plaited braids, tabby-woven braids and garters.

The section on hair nets is great as the method of construction is the same as fishing and birding nets, just heavier material.

Fastening methods start on page 164. Cloth button construction is on page 171.

Many black and white photos of the originals, and line drawing of how it once looked.

I prefer the lace method, having used buckles and also buttons in the past. As can be seen in this pic.

Cloth buttons can be seen on the overcoat in these pics. web page

Here is a close up of finger loop braiding linen cord.

[ 11-06-2003: Message edited by: Woodcrafter ]

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1. Why do you think it is the chest that has been removed ... the construction style fits more with the back having been removed. Indeed the staining (the darkened black ? ) would match a breastplate shape.

2.. At the bottom of DSCN0449 the padding is hanging down ... is this an addition to the hem or has it fallen down from above?

3.. Since the edges appear to have been stitched in different ways (at different times ?) is it possible the collar/sleeves might have been removed? (Possibility not were they)

Also returning to the comments about the 'doublet de fense' ... I read the passage slightly differently, the "for qwarter" are the front/fore quarters (ie. the front two panels of the 4 that comprise the body ... as opposed to the "bake quarter" which are the other two panels.

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I'm fascinated by the photos of the surviving Jack/padded armour ... in particular a few things strike me about it which I'd be interested in comments:
1. Why do you think it is the chest that has been removed ... the construction style fits more with the back having been removed. Indeed the staining (the darkened black ? ) would match a breastplate shape.

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It is a bit hard to judge which side is front and which is back by the pics alone, and that´s for one simple reason- the dummy, on which it is displayed, has female features, and the Jack is mounted the wrong way around. You can see this from the fact that the shoulder seam, which should be on the highest part upon the shoulder, now is hanging at collarbone level.

The Stendal specimen has the same characteristics as to the quilting of the rear, blackened part.

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2.. At the bottom of DSCN0449 the padding is hanging down ... is this an addition to the hem or has it fallen down from above?

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That´s not the padding falling out, that´s some kind of fuzzy panels added to the hem. Looks a bit like panels made of wool carpet, but through the glass of the box I couldn´t make any further observations about the actual technique used for this bit.
For my Jack, I´ll avoid this decoration unless I find some more information.

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3.. Since the edges appear to have been stitched in different ways (at different times ?) is it possible the collar/sleeves might have been removed? (Possibility not were they)

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Concerning hte sleeves:Quite possible.
But I think there hasn´t been any collar. There´s fragments of piping or bias tape at the back (black side) of the neck opening, which can be seen on one of Tobias´ photos.
And if I take a close look at the Stendal one, there´s piping around the neck opeing and down the front opening.

Regards

Ivo

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DSCN0399 http://home.arcor.de/loksley/gonfanon/galerie/ruestwams/pages/DSCN0399.htm

Have a close look at the center of the rear neck opening. The piping fragment is clearly visible.
And have a closer look at the shoulder seam. The armhole on the black side is wider, so one might get the impression that this must be the front, for the front side requires more space for arm movement.

But on the other side...if you consider that usually the back portion requires more fabric than the front does, just to comfortably fit the back of the shoulders, then, mounted the righ way around, even on this dummy, the shoulder seam should be where it belongs. On the top of the shoulders.

Regards

Ivo

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If the piping seen around the throat line in DSCN0399 & DSCN0412 is the piece running from halfway around the opening to the central seam ... then this appears to extend down about 15cm which may indicate a central opening. Looking closely at DSCN0412 there may even be the indication of an overlap with the other side which becomes level at the waist but then opens again by the bottom hem. This would suggest a centre-front opening, which would also match the styling of the pleats which closely mirror contemporary gown styling.

The very neat fit at the waist may be a point closeure tied internally ... I can't make it out in DSCN0412 or DSCN0439. This would also fit with the 'standard' closure for many doublets and gowns. For the 'classic' pleated gown only the throat closure (typically a pair of buttons) and a waist closure (a belt is adequate but was often point/hook other).

The throat shape visible in DSC0412 looks like the front opening rather than the back, however with the absence of a clear view of what is left of the other side I'd hesitate to be sure of that ... under normal circumstances the front is cut deeper at the neck, however the deep back associated with c15th doublets and gowns often means they are very similar in construction.

My gut feel is that the lacing at the skirt is at the back, allowing for adjustment, eg undo for riding ?

The curving pleats seen in DSCN0441 also remind me of the shaping for the shoulder blades / pauldrons and so again this makes me think that the damaged half is the back, not the front.

The hanging 'padding' struck me as wool rather than cotton and there are illustrations of Jacks with what is best described as 'fringe' although the examples I can think of this tends to be at the arm rather than skirt. So this part fascinates me and I'd be interested in any more detail that's evident.

What info is there on the actual construction of this Jack? Is it padded or layered or both ??

please re-read my entries on page two of this thread. Most of your questions have been answered already.

As to the closure...the black part of the Jack in question is the back. Most definitely. On the Stendal Jack the back shows the same characteristic quiltings on the back which si black, too. The Stendal jack on its front opening shows a characteristic cut which is designed to fit the wearer´s body snugly.

There is no concealed closure in the middle of it. Just a little slit, about 10cm in length, measured from the bottom.

As to "undo the skirt closure for riding"...I´d say this defence was made for infantry.

As to the term "pleats"...there isn´t any pleating. There´s just quilting. The back of the Jack has been dyed (painted, more like) black, and the off-white lines are left white for whatever reason.
Probably there used to be braids covering the quilting stitches?

As to the quliting lines on the white part which parallely follow the arm hole...there´s plenty of depictions of quilted armour with the same features to a (often buttoned) front. In this case they end a triangular shape around the navel the top of which extends in a spindle-shaped strip running to the neck line.

As to the fringes...there´s several panels of this wooly material hanging from the lower hem. It´s not the cotton batting hanging out of a damaged lower hem.

But especially this detail (the fringe, I mean) causes a lot of stir to the dating of the garment. There is a myth ascribing it to Gustav Wasa who spent some time of exile in Lübeck in 1519. Others date it to the late 15th century, because of the characteristic lines of the quilting which are thought to mirror the fashionable pleatings on civilian clothing you mentioned.
But then again, there´s the length and the "fuzzy panels" which closely resemble the knee-legth dagged garments with dagged or funnel-shaped sleeves depicted between, say, 1430 and 1450 and worn under armour of Kastenbrust or Early Globose style.

Regards

Ivo

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I'd be wary of dating an armour of this type by the length ... there is a contemporary Scottish act of Parliament which describes different lengths of Jack according to the social rank of the owner (which equated to whether they had leg harness or not). However I'd be very interested in any more details on these 'panels' ... do they have a backing for example? Is it a woven cloth with inserted strands of wool ? ???

I presume also that the piece of piping (?) hanging vertically down from the neck line in the centre of DSCN0412 is simply hanging loose rather than turning down a vertical seam ?

The 'pleats' I mentioned were not related to this garment but to the style ... which would still be appropriate in the 1430-1450 period.

Could you point me to any of the illustrations of the quited armours you mention which show this curved styling around the arm hole ?

I'd be very interested in any further information on this, and any other linen armour ... esp the Stendal one you refer to, that you can get or any references .... e.g. to the Museum etc.

Again many thanks for the time and effort in providing this and in answering my somewhat repetitive questions

I´m not tolerant, I´m just trying to be helpful

I´ll try and give as many infos as I can with a good conscience, because I was told that I couldn´t get a permission to take Photographs in Lübeck.
I can solely rely on my memory and some sketches I made when pressing my nose flat on the glass showcase, from Tobias´ photos and from the said two photos in the book I mentioned earlier.

Colour: I feel the Jack has been painted. Mean: I´ve seen it with my own eyes, the space between the quilting lines is black, the lines themselves are as off-white as the armpit and the front is.
In extant 16th century fencing jacks, quilkting lines have been hidden under a strip of braid. Probably there used to something like it on this Jack?

Dating: You name it, that´s the trickiest part, and people who more educated in this field than my humble self disagree at that point.
As far as I can tell, stylistically it fits pretty well into the 15th century, and I am happy to have an extant example as an orientation and from that point on stopped thinking

"Fuzzy Panels"- the pile seems to have been made of wool, but I can´t tell you anything of the base, because they are backed with linen or fustian.

"Piece of piping": If I remember correctly, there ísn´t anything hanging from the back of the collar.There´s a patch to the chest part on the right hand side of DSCN0412, crudely executed. Probably you took its seam towards the center of the garment for some piping hanging down?

Further illustrations of...must look for it, but since most of my books are German, I could only name artists to be of any help.
One thing...Embleton´s "Medieval Military Costume" shows one of the french pourpoints on one of the colour plates...this features quilting lines following the arm hole.

Museum: The Jack (according to my book) is in the "Altmärkisches Museum" in 39576 Stendal, Germany.

Regards

Ivo

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However I'm still not entirely convinced by the arguement that the blacking was deliberately applied (e.g. as a waterproofing coating). If it were to be applied as a coating then I wouldn't expect to see the voids around the armpit etc.

Whilst the idea of (now lost) piping covering the lines of quilting stitching is a reasonable possibility (it was cetrtainly done on arming doublets and later fencing doublets) the complete absence of any surviving pieces would make me reluctant to accept this theory without some greater detail on the voids to see if there is any evidence of the stitching required for such piping.

Also the piping theory does not explain the absence of colour around the armpits, nor why the ahoulder is uncovered past the point a covering breatplate would reach (assunming that the blackened areas is the back).

Another possibility is that the black does not come from a deliberate application of colour but by a transfer of it. For example if the garment were covered in something that had been blackened (e.g. the inside of a breast/back plate or a poorly dyed fabric) then this colouring might be rubbed off onto the 'jack'. In such a case the 'blacking' would be unlikely to penetrate where there is no contact (e.g. the lower surface of the quilting) leaving the visible voids and where there was contact the blacking would wear into the fabric but be worn off the most outer layer of the threads ... creating the 'patterning' visible in DSCN0449

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Originally posted by Dave Key:

Another possibility is that the black does not come from a deliberate application of colour but by a transfer of it. For example if the garment were covered in something that had been blackened (e.g. the inside of a breast/back plate or a poorly dyed fabric) then this colouring might be rubbed off onto the 'jack'. In such a case the 'blacking' would be unlikely to penetrate where there is no contact (e.g. the lower surface of the quilting) leaving the visible voids and where there was contact the blacking would wear into the fabric but be worn off the most outer layer of the threads ... creating the 'patterning' visible in DSCN0449

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If i recall correctly the Stendal-jacket (according to the very nice description in Waffen und Kostümkunde) is described as painted. The author also make the remark that the colour has been rubbed off the front, which he interprets as a result of wearing a breastplate over the jacket. Didn´t find my papers, but will get back if I do.

Probably they have restored the Lübeck one some time and removed the outer layer of pitch painted canvas?

Tobias has just had his hands upon the second one in the reserve collection. Hopefully this will bring some light.

Unfortunately there are about six people knocking on his door begging for detailed info among of which there´s an author and historian. So I doubt if he´ll ever answer my mail.
He plans to post an article on the homepage of his living history society instead of answering individual email, which probably will take a little longer. So let´s hope and see, I won´t make it to Lübeck in the next few months.

Regards

Ivo

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There´s two more photographs of the Lübeck padded garment. Unfortunately it seems impossible to give direct links, so you gotta take the hard way.

Go to http://www.bildindex.de

Click "Orte" at the top of the page ("orte" in English stands for "places"

On the left of your monitor there appears an alphabetival list.
Click the folder with the letter "L"

The list changes, you see tons of town names.
Click the folder (!) "Lübeck".

Click the folder "Sammlungen" (i.e. "collections")

Click the folder "Öffentliche Sammlungen"
(i.e. "public collections")

Click the folder "Sankt-Annen-Museum"

Click the folder "Kunstgewerbe"
(i.e. "arts and crafts")

Click the folder "Textil"

In the 11th row of photos (happy scrolling) you´ll find two pictures of the Lübeck padde garment.

Regards

Ivo

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The upper photo shows the backsides of the two surviving specimens from Lübeck, the lower one shows the front and back of the Stendal specimen.

Regards

Ivo

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