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»  FireStryker Living History Forum   » History   » Medieval Lifestyles, Activities, and Equipment   » Embroidered Pouches

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Author Topic: Embroidered Pouches
Woodcrafter
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Member # 197

posted 02-06-2007 10:02 AM     Profile for Woodcrafter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I have not seen any art work of embroidered pouches being worn. Leather ones, yes, but most pouches are plain looking. Yet we have surviving embroidered pouches. Aulmoners and opus anglicanum are confusing to me. Are they one in the same, the latter being more ornate? Also were they used only for giving alms to the poor? Sorta ceremonial useage? Would a lower class craftsman own or make use of an embroidered pouch, say if it was not done in silk threads. Were they ever created without the use of silk threads?

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Woodcrafter
14th c. Woodworking


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Charlotte
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posted 02-06-2007 03:44 PM     Profile for Charlotte   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Here is an example of some embellished purses. Whether it's embroidery, or something else, I don't care to speculate.
http://www.tempora-nostra.de/tempora-nostra/manesse.php?id=203&tfl=27

As for the rest, no idea.


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Woodcrafter
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posted 02-06-2007 03:58 PM     Profile for Woodcrafter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Thank you Charlotte for the link. The ones for sale are probably embroidered as those patters have survived in finds of embroidered pouches. It also highlights what I mean but not being shown as worn... The Luttrel Psalter may show one pouch with a diapering of knots only (fellow giving alms to the poor), but not completely embroidered. I fear they are ceremonial alms giving pouches once it was no longer fashionable to only give food.

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Woodcrafter
14th c. Woodworking


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Gina
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Member # 247

posted 02-07-2007 03:56 AM     Profile for Gina   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Although I can't give you a definitive answer with regards to the use of embroidered purses, something to consider is the fact that many women's purses are not seen in art anyway - due to the fact of them being worn being the kirtle and gown. This could be the link - that many very decorative purses are womens.

But, if you look really closely, you can sometimes see parts of women's purses which seem to show decoration or highlights - which could be either embroidery or brocade silk ground. (15c paintings of the Virgin with Elizabeth often show the Virgin with her gown hitched up a bit, and you can often spy a pouch hanging there in the shadows).

There are actually a very large amount of these types of purses - embroidered, using fancy brocade silk grounds, etc which survive (more than you would first think) and this is because many were used as relic purses, so survived in Cathedral collections. I assume that gifts were given to the Church in purses such as these. That doesn't mean that the purses were made soley for this use of course - in the same way as fancy fabrics were given, they may have been purses that were in use prior to being given.

I would doubt that some of the examples would have been used to give alms to the poor - the embroidery itself (and inclusion of decoration such as pearls and gold threads) would make the purse more expensive than the alms. Also, there are quite a few examples with integral, tiny little coin purses.

So, they may be women's purses. (most likely in my opinion). They may also (some of the much smaller ones) be coin purses to use within a larger purse. They may even have been created originally as a 'wrapping' for an expensive piece of jewellery - something still done today.

Opus anglicanum is a style of embroidery, (not a purse)using gold threads and fine stem stitch. This beautiful and highly skilled embroidery is found on many items, surviving examples are mostly ecclesiastical. The English were highly skilled at this method of couching the goldwork (which gave it quite a bit of flexibility by all accounts) and on good examples the faces have an almost 3d quality. Hence the 'anglicanum'.

You may find this site helpful -

Medieval Silkwork

Both Isis and Machteld are doing alot of work with medieval embroidery, and have quite a few examples of their work (with links where possible to images of originals). One of them may be able to shed light on your question about using a lesser quality thread to embroider with.

Hope this helps a bit.

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Gina-b Silkwork & Passementerie
Tak v Bowes Departed
Soper Lane


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Woodcrafter
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Member # 197

posted 02-07-2007 10:17 PM     Profile for Woodcrafter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Excellent ideas Gina, thanks! It does make sense to have valuable purses on the inside. Even if it is just to keep the dust off them. Thanks for the link, I will ask.

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Woodcrafter
14th c. Woodworking


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jboerner
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Member # 996

posted 02-08-2007 06:01 AM     Profile for jboerner   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Myriam has made several almonieres such as this: http://www.diu-minnezit.de/realie_details.php?sid=0&lid=0&rid=148&tid=3
We also have collected some details on the workers who created those (sorry, only in german available at the moment).

In fact, there are quite a lot of sources of these pouches from the 10th to 15th century (and later); there are pictures showing people wearing embroided pouches, as well as plain ones, and there are surviving examples of simple ones.
There are text sources mentioning embroided purses as gift among lovers, but also being worn beneath the topmost clothing (to avoid them being stolen) and uses to give alms (there are even several images of that apart from the luttrell psalter).


Concluding, I don't consider me being able to make a statement if those kind of purses are mainly worn by women (there are images of men wearing those also), if they were not so-often used to give alms (there are texts describing this and images showing it), and/or if they were used for keeping juwels (maybe, but i have no hint for that)

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Diu Minnezīt
Reconstruction of textiles, armour and daily life
1250,1350,1475
Nuremberg and Paris
http://www.diu-minnezit.de

IG Meisterhauw
Reconstruction of late medieval and early renaissance fencing techniques
http://www.meisterhauw.de

Nuremberg in the middle ages
http://www.nuernberg-im-mittelalter.de


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Gina
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Member # 247

posted 02-09-2007 01:37 AM     Profile for Gina   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
jboerner, thanks for the link - gosh, what gorgeous work! May take some translating, but lovely eye-candy none the less!

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Gina-b Silkwork & Passementerie
Tak v Bowes Departed
Soper Lane


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chef de chambre
Admin & Advocatus Diaboli
Member # 4

posted 02-09-2007 04:56 AM     Profile for chef de chambre   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
OT: Gina, I sent you an email a couple of days ago and I don't know if you've seen it yet.

Back to the regular topic.

Jenn


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gregory23b
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Member # 642

posted 02-09-2007 05:35 AM     Profile for gregory23b   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
jboerner - wonderful work.

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history is in the hands of the marketing department - beware!


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Woodcrafter
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Member # 197

posted 02-09-2007 12:09 PM     Profile for Woodcrafter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I have to echo the above, wonderful work indeed!

Great site too! It is easily translated with Babel Fish set to do webpages.
nullBabel Fish translation site

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Woodcrafter
14th c. Woodworking


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