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In my brain "point" is a noun, "pointing", "pointed" or "lacing" being the verb describing the action of the point.

Example: poyntid (pointed)- the armynge poyntis muste be made of fyne twyne suche as men make stryngis for crossbowes and they muste be trussid small and poyntid as poyntis. 'How a man schall be armyd', c1460. Pierpont
Morgan Library, New York, Inv. MS 55, fol
122b-123b.

lasyng (lacing) -215:  j lasyng dublett (1474-5) Will York in Sur.Soc.45  

But does make a distinction regarding "armyng" points.

Jenn

PS: just making note of the variety of colors that appear (no other indicators of multicolored - just color: red, purple, etc...)

[ 07-15-2005: Message edited by: Fire Stryker ]

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We (Soper Lane) tend to use the term 'points' for any lace used for clothing, ie something to specifically connect two items of clothing together or tie up openings (although people tend to ask us for a 'kirtle lace' not point, interestingly). The term 'lace' or 'laces' we tend to use for those braids which will be used for purse strings, paternoster cords, book decoration and other general decoration.

This is mainly because of the Wardrobe accounts tend to refer to points as one thing - and off the top of my head, these are always in quantity, whereas laces 'tends' to be used more often when they are for book decoration, etc.

I've not got any of my references handy at the moment as I am having some major changes take place at my house - but if I can remember which 'safe' place they are all in this week, I shall get them out for you all!

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Jenn

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Well, looking through my notes from the Wardrobe acoounts of Edward IV, it seems that there is a fine distinction between terms, but it is probably one that we will never be quite sure of. For example, one entry is

"Riban of silk for poyntes laces and gyrdels iiij unces."
Can assume that because it is termed 'ribbon', the textile is flat in this instance? Put together such as this also makes me wonder if it is all similar in structure/pattern/weave?

Another entry - with a definite distinction, but what is the distinction?
"... a groos pointes of sylk of divers colours; xxiiij laces of silk of divers colours;..."

To decorate the King's books:
"...laces and tassels of silk, xvj laces; xvj tassels, weying to gider vj unces and iij q'; botons, xvj of blue silk and gold;...
So the laces are used for either decoration without purpose, or as part of ties for chemise binding/bookmarks. Either way, it is likely that each lace has a button one end and a tassel the other, and could not be confused with points.

A little more specific for one item:
"Laces made of ryban of silk: ij dosen laces and a double lace of riban of silk weying ij unces di; Mantell lace of blue silk with botons of the same j."
or
"Poyntes: made of ryban of silk iij groos; made of ryban of silk weying j lb ij unces and a quarterons di', xl dosen."

Are these the same as the 'rybans' above?
"John Poyntmaker for pointyng of xl dosen points of silk pointed with ageletts of laton for every dosen pointing ij d" ... "and for pointing of ij dosen double laces for either dosen ij d."

So he is pointing both 'points' and 'laces', just to confuse everyone...

The terminology is perhaps something much simpler than all of that and has to do with sizes. Perhaps 'points' are always of a uniform size, and therefore that description is sufficient, and the quantity can be noted, with only occasional references to weight. 'Laces' however, seem to be noted with many different descriptions and uses, so the fact of adding the weight to the records could indicate a non-standard length, or perhaps even long lengths to be cut down to size? I don't know

So Charles, coloured points, yes - but definitely agree with Gregory to have the textile dyed before they are made into lace. Very few narrow wares are 'dyed in the cloth', as it is difficult to get the dye to penetrate properly.

Gina

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Now, I know about points being the tips of laces for doublets and hose, and that at some time (well before Melville) the word "points" came to stand for the laces (as well as the tips or tags).

The OED lists Roger Bull (1739) as using the verb "untruss" for undoing or untying points, and I am pretty sure that the British edition revision of "untagging" to "untrussing" was made by either HM who figured out that he had misspoke, or by an editor correcting the word on his behalf.

But how did HM get "untagging" in his head in the first place? Is it possible that this is an acceptable alternative (or archaic) expression for "untying one's points"? Can anyone in this wonderful and fascinating group shed some light on this usage (if it really is a usage).