as I read in the "red company standards" thread, belts weren't worn over a doublet.

after doing a quick scan through my image library i, indeed, couldn't find a picture with a man wearing his belt over a doublet.

i always thought that the belt somewhat interferes with the lacing to the hosen

but always wearing a schecke over the doublet when out of the house? even the doublet is a little hot on warm summerdays. thinking about wearing the schecke over this makes me...sweating

does anybody have any backed up knowledge of how to take all those necessities, like a knife, a money pouch, etc... with you if you dont wear something over your doublet? or was it just socially impossible to go out without a sweated through shirt?

many thanks to the knowing ones in advance.

btw: time and place of interest is southern germany, between 1450 and 1470.

very best regards
-kanzlr

[ 07-14-2004: Message edited by: kanzlr ]

[ 07-22-2004: Message edited by: Martin ]

--------------------

As for wearing all your personal items, I disagree. Not all pictures show people with pouches and personal knives. The rich had servants to carry their personal items. The average person only needed to carry such items when traveling. Or a pouch when going to market. So based on what your plan for the day is, is how you would have dressed.

So if you were traveling on the road, on a hot day, you would wear your doublet and belt with pouch and possibly a dagger for protection. But if you were at home on a hot day, you would need neither pouch or dagger.

Does this sounds good?

--------------------

well, i've recently bought that book "Alltagsleben im Spätmittelalter" which has bible dimensions...

going to read thourgh asap. maybe there is a clearification of this topic.

Martin, would you be so kind as to post the complete citation for this source and/or some pictures of upper class men wearing belts over their doublets, please? I am unfamiliar with the resource you cite.

Thank you.

Please pardon my ignorance, but are these actually doublets? (A doublet being defined as a foundation garment worn over a shirt and under an outer coat or gown to which the hosen are pointed) or some other type of garment? In all 3 examples I see collars which are coloured differently from the body of the garment, and in one example different coloured sleeves. In the construction scene no points are visible at all, and in the massacre scene only one set of points are visible in the centre back.

Could this be some sort of working coat? The different coloured collars and lack of points make me think it is an overgarment, not a doublet. If it is indeed an outer garment rather than a doublet, then it is not an example of a belt being worn over a doublet.

Thank you for the citation on "Das Epos des Burgunder-Reiches" .

Gwen

Edited because the board didn't want to quote URLs properly

[ 07-22-2004: Message edited by: Martin ]

--------------------

[ 07-22-2004: Message edited by: Martin ]

--------------------

have to search through some books for this.

regarding the points: thanks for pointing that out *g*

after this season i will correct the front holes and the hosen. shouldnt be that hard. just exchaning some parts.
ah, and my gown is finished!

thanks a lot, you are all very helpful and knowledgable. you dont find that very often on internet forums

PS: i just got the book "alltagsleben im spätmittelalter". it has bible dimensions...but seems to be a good read!

In any case have a look at page 82 Artists and warfare in the renaissance, JR Hale, Yale. You will see a paduan sketch of two men holding a prisoner. Th eman on the right has his back to us and is not wearing a coat but has a doublet (what i call a doublet, ie a garment that you attach your hose to) that is pointed, but not only to his hose but to his long boots. He is also wearing a belt above the point line. 1470s onwards. Gerry Embleton used this image as a source way back when, although it was more to do with general style. See very early Military illustrated, issues 1 - 5.

Actually on facing page in the Victory of Alexander ... venetian mid 15th there is a man leading a horse with very visibly pointed doublet and the hilt of a knife or sword appearing from his off side attached to a seemingly thin belt.

Also i same book by paulo uccello page 73 a sketch showing a bowman pointed hose to doublet plus a belt.

I will have a further dig out of my limited book collection.

But rare, i would say not and on the contrary especially if you take context in mind. A rich noble in public would not be 'undressed' but a normal soldier as shown in the pics would be or a normal perosn in hot weather etc etc.

Another one of a smith. late 15th early sixteenth Bib national I think, shows a man with no braies hanging down hose at back and doublet and a belt over it.

And yet another late fifteenth showing peasants dancing, a well known image, man on far top right has doublet and hose and a belt over eh doublet.

Also in the del Pollaiuolios' image of martyrdom of sdt Seb it clearly shows a rear view of a crossbowman, the one previously mentioned I think. national gallery London.

Perugino's studies for Tobias and the Angel - Oxford Ashmolean, 1500, clearly shows a young boy on the left with doublet and hose and a belt over the doublet, whereas his companion is shown with a belt over a coat. So we have a very nice comparison in one shot.

Additionally on the Story of Patient Griselda, Italian 1500 National Gallery, shows a rear view of a man with a doublet pointed to his hose and a belt.

Other sources
http://www.thehaca.com/Manuals/VadiNewImages/Untitled-6.jpg http://www.thehaca.com/Manuals/VadiNewImages/Untitled-6A.jpg http://www.thehaca.com/Manuals/VadiNewImages/Untitled-vadii1.jpg

You will agree a wide range of years and range of artists, and contexts, albeit lower down the social scale.

Peder
"as far as I'm concerned there is still very minimal evidence of belts being worn with doublets and certainly not enough to promote doing it."

well maybe have a review of this, i am more than happy to send you gifs of the pics if you wish.

--------------------

[ 09-02-2004: Message edited by: Martin ]

--------------------

But at the end of the day what a group decides and agrees what is right is up to them.

I was merely questioning the principle.

--------------------

I would be glad if you can send me some jpgs/gifs.

nuts!! how do I attach files?

[ 09-01-2004: Message edited by: gregory23b ]

--------------------

The pictures need to be uploaded to a server and linked to from there.

cheers gwen,

--------------------

email is

bundeskanzler@berny.at

regards

Jorge

--------------------

--------------------

regards

--------------------

Something I just noticed which I didn't the other day when we were discussing this.

If you take away the image of the Flemish peasants (wrong class), the remaining 3 images are Italian. Rather than giving evidence for a general trend, I think you've supplied some pretty good "evidence" that at least -some- Italian soldiers wore a doublet with a belt over it.

That still doesn't prove to me that it was acceptable for Burgundians or others to do so, or even that it was a trend adopted by other classes but those are pretty good images for Italian soldiers.

Just my thoughts.