I was all ready to make myself a new surcote, and just before starting work there was some design detail I wanted to double-check, so I went back to look at some pictures of the thing I wanted to make -- and I couldn't find it anywhere! I've looked everywhere I can think of, and can't find a single picture of this garment, which I was convinced really did exist.

I'm aware that the most common late 14th-century surcote design was the tight-fitting, sleeveless, elaborately heraldic kind, and that's not what I had in mind. The thing I'm imagining is more loosely fitted and maybe somewhat longer, has big angel-wing sleeves, and is heavily dagged.

My question: does this ring any bells with anyone? Was there really such a garment, or is it a figment of my imagination? Have malicious gnomes removed all the evidence from my books? If anybody can point me to a period representation of the thing I'm trying to describe, I'll be most grateful.

I know one of the artists for Osprey painted a plate using it but I can't remember the actual historical source.

Perhaps one of the folks who was engaged will recall the painting.

It could be artistic fancy, might have been a legitimate piece of clothing, though I would speculate that it was for tournament rather than used in the field. Things that drag tend to get caught up in things or underfoot...not a good space on a historical battlefield.

~J

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The Manesse Codex: http://www.manesse.de/manesse0-9.shtml

Do you have a copy of "Medieval Warfare in Manuscripts" by Pamela Porter handy? It has a number of illustrations of the surcotes you mentioned.

The only picture with the dags that resemble angel wings is on page 44. It is Add MS 11616, f. 34v.

If you are interested in 14th C. military iconography, this is a good (& inexpensive) book to have.

I can email a scan of that illustration if that would be helpful.

Regards

Do "angel wing surcoats" exist? Yes. I'll dig out some pictures cause they're certainly out there.

Do they look like the "angel wing fighting houppeland" promoted and made famous by Brian Price and much beloved in SCA circles?

Hardly.

The most important point of difference between the 2 is the sleeves. The SCA version features a full length "angel" sleeve (i.e. it comes down to the wrist) the better to hide crappy arm defenses. The real ones tend to fall open from either the front of the shoulder or perhaps the front of the bicep, the better to frame and display really fine arm defenses. A generally nice modern reconstructioin of this style is worn by Jason Monarch (Kieran MacLeod) of House Leonthas in Michigan.

The other point of difference is in the body. The SCA version tends to be baggy and ill fitting, an inexpensive way to cover bulky, ill fitting body armour. The 14th C. ones in the effigies are tailored almost to the point of looking spray painted on to fit over the fashionably curvaceous cuirass.

I believe I have pictures of several effigies I can post later, when I have a tad more time.

I'm very interested in seeing pictures (or at least references) for the historical precedents for this garment, anyway. If I'm going to make it right, I need to know more than I do. I think there's one on the Trebon Altarpiece, though all I have is a line drawing....

Two other things I was wondering, if anyone can shed some light -- a)were such surcotes worn over or under one's breastplate, and b)how were they fastened? none of the related illustrations I've seen show buttons down the front, as I would have expected.

Thanks for your help!