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Author Topic: Livery Jackets
Steve S
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Member # 371

posted 10-11-2002 04:00 PM     Profile for Steve S     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Please be gentle as this is my first posting...I'm a quite happy U.K. 18th cent. re-enactor ,but I've always had an interest in the WOR period.I've got quite confused with the various types of Livery Jacket....Those normally worn by Household Retainers, Those Issued to Levies, Whether worn under or over Armour, Whether worn instead of or as well as civilian Jackets.Help!!
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Friedrich
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posted 10-11-2002 11:50 PM     Profile for Friedrich   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Liveries are a military identification worn OVER armour and clothing. It wouldn't do well if you hid your livery under your breastplate unless you had tucked tail and were running away! I've seen 3 types for identifying your "colours". The long coat, the livery jacket which you refer to, and the short tabbard (whose technical name escapes me at the moment).

As to armour and pending on the type of armour, you could make your brigandine outer covering with your identifying colours eliminating the need for another clothing layer (aka heat).


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chef de chambre
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posted 10-12-2002 09:59 AM     Profile for chef de chambre   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi All,

Regarding military livery jackets, Friedrich has the right of it. That said, livery clothing can take a number of forms, and Freidrichs own kit reflects this, as he has a military livery paltot worn over his civil dress, which is in the livery colours of the officer of his chambre, as his persona is in the role of a trusted 'feedman'.

It is important to note that we reenactors tend to freely use the term 'Livery' in a strict context of a jacket of some sort worn with a lords colours displayed, wheras historicaly the term is very much broader. It includes any and all clothing and cloth issues to a retinue, their 'daily bread', and monetary compensaion, and anything in fact given as a reward for their service. Most surviving Medieval and Renaissance cupbords and aumbrys are termed as 'livery cupboards', as they were literaly the source from which the household bread, wine, and other suchlike were distributed from.

--------------------

Bob R.


Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
chef de chambre
Admin & Advocatus Diaboli
Member # 4

posted 10-12-2002 10:16 AM     Profile for chef de chambre   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi Steve,

To more properly address your question, This is one area where we don't have a lot of definitive explanations for. In our era, we have to say "We don't know' an awful lot, and regarding cuts of liveries, this is most definitely one of those areas.

In example, regarding the Burgundian companies of the ordinances, we know for a fact that every January, new livery jackets ( "paltots" ) were issued to the rank & file, and accounted for in the Comptes de Chambre in Dijon -presumably distributed from a centeral stores there . This tallies nicely with the English custom of distributing cloth or clothing to servants as a New Years present (or on occassion of Easter as sometimes occured). Now what form these issued paltots took is a matter of debate - presumably the rank and file recieving the simplest form, which our company has opted to represent for our new recruits - a sleeveless form of tabard, with limited shaping, to be belted around the waist (although they are well made of good wool, lined wih linen, and with a 'tape' edging). I am currently trying to produce a decent stamp in the form of the ducal fusil to stamp the linings of all these, in the same fashion that the broad arrow was stamped on equipment issued from the Tower.

Given Charles the Bolds penchant for appearances, and the several examples of his large known issues of livery that are detailed, we have opted for more elaborate liveries for those of higher 'station', using the artwork of the era and region as inspiration for examples of cut and material. We believe this should give us that elusive look of non-uniformity, but with a uniform theme that is ultimately desireable in a Late Medieval military impression.

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Bob R.


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Steve S
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posted 10-12-2002 10:44 AM     Profile for Steve S     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Thanks all,
The consensus seems to back up what I thought..A properly made Jacket for everyday use by senior retainers & a simpler(sleeveless?) one for use over Armour & for issue to militia etc.(or for national recognition as in the Scots campaign of the 1480's)
Steve

Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
chef de chambre
Admin & Advocatus Diaboli
Member # 4

posted 10-12-2002 11:33 PM     Profile for chef de chambre   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi Peder,

We know for a fact that the draft of footsoldiers from Flanders in the Fall of 1476 went off to the siege of Nancy "in new liveries in the ducal colours, and three months pay in their purses...". Those weren't mounted archers and coustiliers, but for the most part were pikemen from the towns.

--------------------

Bob R.


Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged

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