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Author Topic: whats in the wardrobe?
Cornelius
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Member # 216

posted 05-28-2002 06:56 PM     Profile for Cornelius     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hay Ho
A general question to all of you. A few of us were looking at the average number of clothes an average person for our timeframe (late 15th) would have owned...
I have some doco on the cloathing allowence of those in holy orders (albit 13thC), we also have muster rolls-good for the metal bits, but nothing about the man on the street (or woman). So does anyone have anything on the quantities of cothing the type of people we are portaying would have owend?

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chef de chambre
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posted 05-28-2002 08:23 PM     Profile for chef de chambre   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi Cornelius,

Depends on what you consider 'average'. The thing you need is inventories made upon a deceased persons goods, and wills. These exist in some number for people of fairly humble station - down to and including indigents who died as charity cases in hospitals.

As I recall from some examples I have read, the indication of several sets of clothes seems to be normal - a persons 'best', a couple of other sets, multiple changes of linens (that is how the doublets and such are kept clean, by frequently changing the smallclothes underneath).

Retainers tended depending on station were issued clothing from a yearly (every Easter or New Years was the custrom, dependant on household I believe) to a quarterly basis. As a general rule, the clothing was expected to last for a while, so several such seanons passing gives even the meanest fellow several sets of clothing. Beggers and the indigent arte another matter entirely, but there was an entire business revolving around the sale of second hand clothing, and tailors who's business it was to 'turn' older clothes to pronlong their life.

[ 05-28-2002: Message edited by: chef de chambre ]

--------------------

Bob R.


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Gwen
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posted 05-28-2002 08:32 PM     Profile for Gwen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Well, we know most people in service were given a suit of clothes a year as part of their work agreement. What does that say about what they owned? That they had at least one set of new clothes a year.

Added to that one could reasonably expect them to have some hand me downs from their employer / master. I read a story recently in one of my books about the Queen of Spain (14th C? 15th C?) feeling that her son was being too protective of his clothing, so she called him to her and asked him to list his clothing. She also asked him when the last time he gave something away was. Dissatisfied with the answer, she told him that on his birthday every year he was to give *all* of his clothing away, and told the Steward that he should order more clothes for the Prince. The Queen told her son that it was his DUTY to give largess to those in his service, and besides, he shouldn't wear thing more than a couple of times because it was unseemly for someone in his position to do so. (I'll try to find the citation for that story, it's a good one.)

Bob R. posted the travelling clothes of some mucky muck on campaign a while ago and if converted to cash the value probably would have fed and housed a small village for a year- and that's just what he took *on campaign* with him.

AM posted an inventory of a peasant's possessions a while ago. It amounted to very few clothes, a few chairs, a few pots and the like.

All this adds up to knowing what a few individuals owned. Is it enough to extrapolate that Joe Average Guy on the Street ownded? Dunno. I leave it to those with more knowledge than me to answer.

Gwen


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Fire Stryker
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posted 05-29-2002 08:08 AM     Profile for Fire Stryker   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
The "mucky muck" as Gwen calls him, was Sir John, later to be known as the Duke of Norfolk. And he dressed pretty fine for a mucky muck.

The URLs for a person portraying a Knight are:

http://www.wolfeargent.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=7&t=000040

http://www.wolfeargent.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=7&t=000073

Jenn


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Cornelius
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posted 05-29-2002 08:30 AM     Profile for Cornelius     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
OK - Let us assume
1/ middle-class professional soldier (say a halberdier)

2/ an archer (same as above)

3/ a poor man-at-arms

4/the wives of all of the above

how many shirts/doublets/shoes/boots/jakets ect, would these people own?
how fast do things wear out - we do not go through clothing at the same rate...(thank Budda)

Cornelius


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Cornelius
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posted 05-29-2002 08:37 AM     Profile for Cornelius     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
erggg
sorry about the previous post- its late and Im a sleepy womble....

chef - thank you - your estamates are about what we were working on - several sets of under things, an old set of hose/doublet ect ,plus last years gear and the new bits (this years issue) that is now the 'Sunday best'
but we still are looking for those elusive hard numbers...

Cornelius


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chef de chambre
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posted 05-29-2002 06:38 PM     Profile for chef de chambre   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi Cornelius,

Again, wills and post mortem inventories, along with household accounts are the bestr bet. Both the Howard Household accounts, and the De Vere accounts have recently been in print, and while noble households, they cover such items as issues of livery and gifts to retainers. The yearly gift of livery is of course in the peers livery, and would be used to make up gowns (they are usually issed lengths of cloth for the making of clothing), and possibly hosen. Presumably the rertinue would also aquire normal clothing of their own account.

This book tops my wish-list "Wills of the Archdeaconry of Sudbury, 1439-74" I.Register 'Baldwyne, 1439-1461 Edited by Peter Northeast - . This covers pretty much the second estate, and the well to do of the third. "Lincoln WIlls 1532-1534" covers the lower classes, but is far too out of date for my usage.

It is books like these however you need to lay hands on to answer your questions.

--------------------

Bob R.


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Cornelius
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posted 05-29-2002 11:53 PM     Profile for Cornelius     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
thank you muchly - I looks like Im in for a trip to the National Libary....

wish me good hunting
Cornelius


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