So, we allow folks to use them. And unfortunately too often, they are Rev War or U.S. Civil War types because we are too lazy/frugal to make something specific for our medieval kit. Yet I am very aware that the supporting evidence for a soldier to wear a forage bag is very slim. Aside from depictions of people who are actually on pigrimage, you don't seem to find many examples in period art.

How you folks treat this issue?

[ 05-07-2001: Message edited by: Yeoman ]

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The problem is one of artistic convention I believe. Soldiers are usually portrayed in battle - not on the march. You also do not see the absolutely essential flasks/canteens/costrels that anybody marching for any distsance would require. I believe there is ONE solitary picture of the Burgundian army on the march drawn by a Swiss veteran of the war (for the Berne chronicle I believe) that shows both soldiers with costrels (a fellow filling them in a stream, and his mate handing them to him), and I believe the soldiers are depicted wearing haversacks (or some are) on the march.

Feudal levies called out usually specify turning up with X days worth of rations. The method we know for carrying food on pilgimage was through the means of a bag or script, we can logicaly infer that an individual carrying rations on campaign would do the same. They certainly did not lug their food around in their hands. Until evidence to the contrary is presented, I think it is a fair logical deduction (at least for the common soldiery, anybody with a servant would have them lugging their gear).

In Wolfe Argent, I encourage the members to aquire/make both 'haversacks' and costrels - the latter is absolutely essential in the field to prevent dehydration as far as I am concerned. A commonly seen European re-enactment shift is to have women lugging up buckets of water and ladels to water the troops.

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The usual method is slung over the shoulder. There are illustrations of peasants in fields carrying a sack at the waist like a Medieval 'fanny pack', but it would be an awkward carry method for long distance travel - hell to march with for sure.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Yeoman:
How you folks treat this issue?

[ 05-07-2001: Message edited by: Yeoman ]

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I don't, exactly.

I wear a small kidney-shaped belt pouch, and in it are a cloak pin, my small (medieval) reading glasses, and a single car key. I keep the absolute necessities (medicines, contact solution, etc) in my clothing bag, in my tent. The rest is locked in my car at the start of the event, and with luck, not used again before I leave. It's there if I really need it, but I avoid it best I can.

I was half kidding about the contents of the forage bag. I agree with you completely that such stuff as cellphones & modern stuff should not be carried on your person---it just discourages getting into the mood, in the same way that wearing a carefully concealed wristwatch might. This stuff is best left in the tent or the vehicle, if you can manage without it. I have a special haversack for all that junk that hangs inconspicuously in my tent---I don't wear it on my person. And I am beginning to collect & make a bunch of simple linen sacks & bags for packing bread, fruit and other things.

At this last weekend's encampment, I was very pleased with myself when I unloaded my van at the site, and NEARLY every visible item was either reasonable authentic to period, or at the least, non-modern and inoffensive to the ambience of the setting.

[ 05-08-2001: Message edited by: Yeoman ]

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Larger TECH items would be kept in a locked box in the tent or in the car or not brought at all. I try to avoid bringing anything that is completely out of time. The cellphone is a "necessary evil" in the event that the 21st Century needs to get in touch with the 15th.

What about pack baskets?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fire Stryker:

What about pack baskets?

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Wonderful idea, as a former fur trapper I'm very familiar with their usefulness.

I have one I used to use regularly in my impression of a tinker at the Renaissance Pleasure Faire. It is a half-cylinder wicker basket with a leather-hinged wicker lid (yes, it's a wicker clothes hamper), mounted to a willow & rawhide packframe. I can carry a 40-pound payload in it with little difficulty and 50-60 pounds with a moderate amount of sweat raised on my forehead. One handy feature of my packbasket is that it has a flat base. This allows it to stand on its own once it's set down.

Mine is not identical to any of the period examples, but it's so damn close I doubt even the most hardcore would have an issue with it. If you look through later medieval art long enough, you will will see several different examples of shapes & suspensions for these. If you like, I'll post some examples when I get a chance (plus photos of my rig).

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quote:

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Originally posted by Yeoman:
If you like, I'll post some examples when I get a chance (plus photos of my rig).

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You mean you have to ask?

Of course I'd like to see both.

An old Boy Scout (and I'm told, Native American) method of carrying a heavy packbasket for short distances is a tumpline, i.e. a cord going from near the bottom of the basket, up and across the head at the front hairline, and back to the bottom of the basket on the other side - there is usually a straplike browstrap in the middle. It's surprisingly comfortable and efficient.

IMHO, *if* they were used is not the same question as *who* used them and under what circumstances they were used.

Just my 2d.

and for a larger, more detailed version go here:
http://finkas.home.netcom.com/FireStryker/Triumph-1.jpg

From that example, I would conjecture that a soldier's wife or an officer's servant might wear a packbasket. But I grant you, there seems to be no evidence of soldiers wearing them.

(1) seems to be a blocky bundle or maybe even a box, covered in a bag or bound in fabric. (2) is clearly a packbasket of the sort that is familiar. (3) Could possibly be a large forage bag, but then again it may only be a bit of skirt with an apron over top.

The way we used to get around the issue of class is to occasionally portray the servants of our other characters. This trick is especially useful when setting up tents or doing some sort of base labour that we feel is beneath our primary persona's station. And, of course, we had alternate costumes for the task...

[ 05-09-2001: Message edited by: Yeoman ]

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From Jean de Bels description of Edward III's Weardale campaign, he specifically mentions rations carried by the men at arms.

They had outrun the rest of their supply train (and army), and there was no food to forage as the Scots had emptied the contryside in front of them. Amongst other things, he mentioned how cold, wet, and miserable they were, how they had to sleep in harness, at best with a saddle propped under their heads, and how they suffered for food and drink as "... the bread they carried behind the saddle was soaked through with their horses sweat, and some had drinking bottles, but most had to drink out of the streams..."

From this I would infer two things 1. That tey carried their bread ration in some sort of cloth bag - which they tied behind the saddle. If it were a leather portmaneau or saddle bag it would take a very long time to soak through and soak the food contained. They obviously didn't just set their bread on their horses rump and trot off,(and I have yet to see any evidence whatsoever for Medieval saddle bags - "standards" and fardels were carried on pack saddles on sumpter beasts) and 2. at least some people even in the exhalted position of Man at arms carried their own costrel.

It is a small, but interesting piece of evidence.

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Alexander Neckham (12th century tourist) carried a "wallet" that he stored food etc in between towns.

I am very confortable with the fact that travellers would use some sort of sack object to tote things...what exactly it looked like or how it was made is the subject of more conjecture .

hope this helps!
--AM, who loves her wallet and uses it to carry stuff to the bathroom, or when shopping

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Here's the link to the index!
http://www.companie-of-st-george.ch/dragons_1.phtml

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