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Author Topic: Black Powder question
Gwen
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Member # 126

posted 05-12-2001 08:09 PM     Profile for Gwen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I'm sure there must be some experienced black powder shooters out there, and I need your expertise! (Please!!!)

We have an irate client who says our matchlock is not .58 caliber as advertised because the actual size of the bore is .615.

Upon inquiry, the proprietor of a local black powder shop had the following to say:

"Caliber size refers to the size ball used when shooting. The actual bore diameter of a
matchlock is sized to allow for a patch around the ball to create a proper seal against the inside of the bore. A gun designed to fire a .58" diameter lead ball projectile will have a .615 bore diameter to
allow for the patch."

So the question is- does the bore size or the projectile size determine the caliber of the gun?

Our gunsmith insists they are .58 caliber because that's the size of the projectile, and the local gun shop owner agrees. The client insists it's the other way around, and that we're "insulting his intelligence" by claiming otherwise.

Who's right?

Is there a standard that everyone uses?

We need to get this sorted out ASAP before we have more problems....

Your expertise would be appreciated.

Gwen


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Bob Hurley
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Member # 58

posted 05-12-2001 09:23 PM     Profile for Bob Hurley     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I wrote a long complicated post, then realized I had addressed many issues and answered none of them.

I think the simplest method is to advertise that the gun "fires a .58 ball" (or bullet, or minie, et cetera) and avoid the caliber issue completely.

[ 05-12-2001: Message edited by: Gaston ]


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Friedrich
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Member # 40

posted 05-12-2001 10:46 PM     Profile for Friedrich   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Gwen,

Your gunsmith is right at least for modern manufacture.

Who/what/where in caliber sizing:

For example, let's use a .308 aka 7.62 rifle. The bullet is a .30 cal bullet but the barrel MUST be bigger or the bullet would heat up and seize/catch in the barrel. Plus you have the modern grooving (such as 1:12 twist) cut into the barrel making it even wider (to provide bullet spin with less friction).

The barrel of a smoothbore must be larger (.615 is reasonable) to accomodate the patch. If it wasn't, you'd end up with a jammed bore and very possibly a burst barrel.

In addition, without some extra width, the PSI in the barrel would far exceed industry recommendations and BOOM aka split barrel.

Most common ball calibers are:
.50
.58
.68 (paintball)

The organisation that regulates modern manufacturing is via the guidelines provided by Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (S.A.A.M.I.). Their data is what reloaders compare their data (powder amount) so that they don't exceed industry standards risking firearm failure. Admittedly old caliber data is by pressure testing old barrels and trial & error. My reloading books unfortunately don't address blackpowder sizing.

Friedrich

[ 05-12-2001: Message edited by: Friedrich ]


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Dru
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Member # 180

posted 05-12-2001 11:30 PM     Profile for Dru   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Gwen,
I'm afraid that, according to modern black powder shooters, the caliber of the gun is what the bore is actually purported to be. I build a number of 18th and 19th century rifles and smoothbores each year and the barrels arrive to me with a caliber designation which is generally larger than the ball that it shoots. This is not always the case since different manufacurers make different size holes for the same caliber. For example, purchasing the same caliber barrel for the same style of gun from three different manufacturers, say in .58 caliber, can require three different ball patch combinations for good results, ie. manufacturer A's barrel uses .570 ball and .015 patch (a very standard combination, manufacturer B uses a .575 ball and .015 patch, and manufacturer C uses a .580 ball and .020 patch. This example is actually based on guns I own and the combination for barrel C won't fit in barrel A without a hammer.

Though I still haven't found a period reference to how calibers were determined in the 15th century, by the end of the 17th century, they were referring to how many balls there were to the pound, with no reference to the actual physical size. This convention continued on into the mid 19th century for most civilian arms and military arms until the advent of the rifled musket and minie ball.

Dru

--------------------

Dru Shoemaker
www.medievalshoes.com


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Gwen
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Member # 126

posted 05-13-2001 12:01 AM     Profile for Gwen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
So what you're telling me is that there is no written-in-stone-by-God unshakable and immutable RULE that everyone in the world follows.

We've taken the safe course of rewording the matchlock ad to say that the gun shoots a .58 caliber projectile. Let 'em figure it out from there.

Thanks for the input.

Gwen


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Bob Hurley
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Member # 58

posted 05-13-2001 12:59 PM     Profile for Bob Hurley     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
And, of course, you could add bullet/ball molds to you line, and say "this gun shoots an approximately .58 caliber ball, and performs best with a ball cast in our matching bullet mold, part# XYZ-234"

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Gwen
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Member # 126

posted 05-13-2001 07:35 PM     Profile for Gwen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Oh goodie, something *else* to add to the product line....

Actually, our gunsmith insisted that the gun be a "standard" caliber so it would be easy to find ammo. I guess in his world, the caliber is gauged by the projectile, not the bore size.

Jeff did some more poking around the net this AM and it seems that everybody makes their own version of the "standard", pretty much confirming what Dru said.

I'm not losing any sleep over this, believe me!

Gwen


Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged

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