Please pardon a question.

What do you think of this tree for building into a 15th C saddle?
http://www.lordgreys.org/images/viewer.php?albid=4&stage=1&imgid=342

When and where in the 15th century? It does make a great difference.

To my eye, it looks like a Western that has a different cantle and pommel tacked on, and I am pretty sure there is much greater differences between war saddles and Western saddles than meets the eye.

I think it will make a better 'medieval looking' saddle than most common creative adaptions of modern saddles.

What is your goal? to make an accurate replica? Or to make something that fits your horse well and looks the part (but not if you are looking at it's 'innards' off the horse)? There is no "right" answer to either of those questions - both are perfectly legitimate, but the different goals allow for different methods of construction.

I think it is a better method than merely using a modern Spanish or Portugesa saddle.

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The most important considerations are the health of the horse and safety of the rider - me.

The tree is custom made for a specific horse by a real, honest to goodness, saddle-tree maker.

I am looking to construct a saddle for interpretion of an English 1470s man-at-arms.

Thank you for your time and kind consideration!

Thank you for this post

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Originally posted by Verg:
hmmm . . .

The most important considerations are the health of the horse and safety of the rider - me.

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Well, that would be assumed by any horse owner, at least in my experience. It really doesn't answer my question regarding if you are trying to make an accurate reconstruction, or something that will "pass", however.

A lot of modern equestrians in my experience have a default assumption that pre-17th century equine equipment, horse knowledge, and training/ability/capability is limited, brutal, inefficient, or what have you. Considering the sheer cost of a trained war mount, that isn't always the best assumption to make. Considering most pre-industrial societies were immersed in equine knowledge and daily use compared to ours, it isn't always wise to assume that our methods always surpass theirs by default.

On the other hand, surviving veterinary and equine training manuals from England, specifically, that are pre-Tudor show the most brutal methods for training imaginable. Different locations have quite different methodologies of training, Italian/Spanish and Portugese being far more 'advanced' from a modern perspective.

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The tree is custom made for a specific horse by a real, honest to goodness, saddle-tree maker.

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That is very good, and really the only method I would consider. The only problem I see is that your tree-maker might be drawing more on his own experience and modern saddles than from examining extant examples.

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I am looking to construct a saddle for interpretion of an English 1470s man-at-arms.

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Well, the tree looks better to my eye than most modern conversions or adaptions of existing saddles. On the other hand, it does not closely resemble the late 15th/early 16th century war saddle trees that I have seen.

Given your intent, a 'steel' saddle is not even necessary, considering you would be dismounting to fight in almost every instance, unless you are considering taking up jousting. I know it is popular and de-rigure for modern artists and interpretations to place men at arm in war saddles universally, but many, many pieces of historical art show riding saddles of other forms being used by armoured men, and inventory lists/household accounts show all sorts of different saddles being purchased for use.

My honest opinion is that if you are looking for something that looks more like a 15th century saddle of the 1470's than any commercially available alternative, then you have got something that will be very nice, but if your intent is an accurate reconstruction, this tree does not fit the bill.

I myself would use it in preference to the Austrailian stock saddle I currently use.

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Thank you for your time and kind consideration!

[ 07-22-2005: Message edited by: Verg ]

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You are more than welcome. Please show us further progress.

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This tree looks like is based on the Henry V saddle tree, especially in the side plates. The scooping in the front bow is excessive, the sides turn so far forward the rider won't be able to lean against it for good support when needed. The cantle is generally good, but the arcons would need to come around further to support the hips properly. A notable thing on the Henry V is that the rider stands in the saddle, there is an iron bar with a padded seat to hold the rider above the horse's back. The original saddle is great for tourneys and cavalry work, giving excellent support, but would be less suited for mounted infantry, and this is reflected in this tree. If this tree was finished with a low seat it would also be more dangerous for the rider.

One thing I don't like is the stirrup slot cut directly into the wood, I would prefer to see an iron fixture for this, and not so far forward. This will force you into a brida seat whether you like it or not, a more central fixing would let you ride with a more balanced seat.

All in all, this would make a good 14th-15th century jousting saddle, but not so good for mounted infantry. However, this guy is a tree maker, so should be able to make what you need if you can supply enough information. But make sure he makes what you need, not what he thinks you should have.

"he tried to return to the horse lines to retrieve his horse but was cut down . . ." [Barnet]

"after the collapse of the Lancasterian line, the fleeing men were riden down and many cut down from behind as they ran." [Towton]

"Audley's (Lancasterian) armoured cavalry made two attempts to assault the Yorkists across Wemberton Brook." [Blore Heath]

"men at arms preferred a style with lower back and scooped buttock supports, and lower front bow"

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Originally posted by Verg:
What type of saddle might have been used during English battles where one finds mentions of:

"he tried to return to the horse lines to retrieve his horse but was cut down . . ." [Barnet]

"after the collapse of the Lancasterian line, the fleeing men were riden down and many cut down from behind as they ran." [Towton]

"Audley's (Lancasterian) armoured cavalry made two attempts to assault the Yorkists across Wemberton Brook." [Blore Heath]

What type of saddle were they using whilst in armour approaching a battle or immediately after a battle while pursuing the vanquished? What type of saddle were Audley's men using?

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Now, I don't know - it largely depends on what type of soldiers are under discussion.

Keep in mind Warwick was cut down by a pair of archers, trying to flee to the horse park (all the participants were on foot). Warwick likely had a saddle with steels, given his rank. The archers, being a part of the main battle were on foot. On the other hand, he could well have had a saddle more in form like the "parade" saddles of bone seen in a number of museums. The Kunsthistorishes museum has a leather covered saddle of this form, attributed to Maximillian (circa 1486) in it's collection.

Towton - the people doing the riding down and cutting down of fleeing Lancastrians likely weren't fully armoured men at arms, who were the front lines of the battles slogging away at each other for upwards of 7 hours in that fight, they likely were 'afore riders', and probably were in more normal riding saddles of the day. I think you will find that cavalry troops in the Wars of the Roses who remained a mounted reserve, were most likely men of this sort, and not armoured lancers.

Regarding Blore Heath, there is quite a bit of debate as to whether a large part of Audelys force was mounted as fully armoured men at arms in the Continental fashion, or even assulted mounted. What we know for sure about Blore Heath is approximately where it was fought, and that it was a setback for the Lancastrians of Cheshire, and that is about the sum total of knowledge.

The English were very much not noted for armoured men at arms in a cavalry role on the battlefield, from the first 3rd of the 15th century onward, if not earlier, given the English method of fighting. Jousting in tournaments, which a limited number of the gentry/nobility actively pursued is not the same thing as fielding as units of heavy cavalry in warfare. Look at the disaster of Bauge when Clarence tried to meet French heavy cavalry head-on in the same way.

Peter, actually looking at that tree from a side view, it is too much of a V. Take a look at later 15th century saddles (heck, take a look at late 14th century saddles), the cantle slopes slightly forward, or is upright at the least. I think this saddle in the way the cantle and pommel are sloped to front and rear, more closely resembles 12th and 13th century European saddles, and Hungarian saddles of a later date. It looks to me like this one is loosely based on the Henry V saddle, but saddles from 50 years later for the purpose differ dramatically.

Verge - what extant saddles did you and your saddle maker use for a model for the tree?

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Originally posted by Verg:
Peter,

"men at arms preferred a style with lower back and scooped buttock supports, and lower front bow"

Do you have pictures of such saddles?

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OK, ignoring the bone- or horn-covered parade saddles, here are a few references:

Ann Hyland, The Horse in the Middle Ages, pages 20, 48, 60.

Kunst Historische Museum catalogue, plate 44.

Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight, pages 102, 108/9 (though still of the wrap-around type, it is lower in the seat and plates), 124, 126&127 (again, still of the wrap-around type), 165.

Richard Humble, Warfare in the Middle Ages, page 154

Charles Cheneveux Trench, A History of Horsemanship, pages 63, 99.

These are a few references I could find pre-1500 that you might have access to, the big problem is finding period art that shows the saddle clearly, or pictures of the few surviving saddles.

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Originally posted by chef de chambre:

Peter, actually looking at that tree from a side view, it is too much of a V. Take a look at later 15th century saddles (heck, take a look at late 14th century saddles), the cantle slopes slightly forward, or is upright at the least. I think this saddle in the way the cantle and pommel are sloped to front and rear, more closely resembles 12th and 13th century European saddles, and Hungarian saddles of a later date. It looks to me like this one is loosely based on the Henry V saddle, but saddles from 50 years later for the purpose differ dramatically.

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