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Topic: spanish saddle
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Gwen
Member
Member # 126
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posted 07-13-2005 08:35 PM
    
Let's start this off with me stating for the record that I don't joust.  However, himself is currently on a plane to Scotland to do that very thing, so I can give you the short-non-technical answer.A modern "spanish saddle" only looks like a historical saddle in the vaguest possible way. To a purist it probably doesn't look like a period saddle at all. More thoughts on the subject- It is true that some people joust in "spanish saddles", just like some people joust in Western saddles, Australian stock saddles and UP saddles. Jeff will probably be jousting the next 3 weekends in some sort of spanish saddle. "Spanish saddles" and "Portuguese saddles" are sold interchangeably on EBay under the same name, although they are different animals. Any modern saddle is not a jousting saddle, although they can be used for jousting. There are lots of cheap saddles on EBay. Having 2 of them in the tack room myself, all I can say is Caveat Emptor. A cheap saddle is a cheap saddle, and both you and your horse may find a cheap saddle very uncomfortable to ride in. Both Spanish and Portuguese saddles have a tendency to roll when an armoured rider tries to mount. Here again Caveat Emptor. I've seen this happen twice, once with a horse being mounted by an unarmoured rider and once under an armoured rider. Trying to corral a terrified horse screaming around with a with a horse eating saddle slung under its belly is not my idea of a good time. Based on my observations, the horse doesn't like it much either.  Gwen
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Fire Stryker
Admin & Advocatus Diaboli
Member # 2
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posted 07-14-2005 06:33 AM
A Carmargue saddle, has the "look" by way of a cantle that wraps, but still is a different beast. If your horse has a large barrel, you would most likely have to pay the price for a custom saddle.eBay is a wonderful yet risky place to buy saddles. Like Gwen said, cheap can mean really cheap. It's also a crap shoot when it comes to getting a proper fit. If you go Portuguesa (which tends to be the ones listed on eBay) you will need a breast collar and crupper to keep the thing from sliding around to avoid rider dump and horse eating monster syndrome, also mentioned above.  We lucked out with the Australian stock saddles we bought, which is what several of the Australian/NZ jousters use. I know one has built a Henry V saddle and another one is being built. Other folks ride in modified McClellan's or some other universal patterned saddle made to look like medieval war saddles by adding steels to the cantle plate and a burrplate over the fork. I am pretty sure other answers are forthcoming. Do you do a 14th century impression? J -------------------- ad finem fidelis
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Callum Forbes
Member
Member # 230
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posted 07-14-2005 08:23 PM
Quite a few of the European jousters use Spanish and Portugese saddles because superficially they sort of look medieval, even though this form of saddle first appeared in the 16th century so was unlikely to have ever been used to joust in historically.-------------------- URL=http://www.jousting.co.nz Facebook [URL=http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1290562306]
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Joram van Essen
Member
Member # 415
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posted 07-15-2005 04:24 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Callum Forbes:
Quite a few of the European jousters use Spanish and Portugese saddles...
Actually not true, of the 18 or so jousters I joust regularily maybee 4 use portuguese saddles. Over here the most common is a rebuilt military UP. My group has 3 of them and they tend to look and fit the horse better. Custom built medieval saddles are also becoming more common. I made one for my horse at the begining of the year, and after about 20 jousts and regular ridding, it is still fitting and handeling very well.
Cheers
Joram -------------------- Fortiter et Fortis
www.medievalproductions.nl
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Fennguard
Member
Member # 771
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posted 07-15-2005 07:14 AM
cool info...where may I find some pictures of saddles that would be more fitting my persona? -------------------- 11th century slovakian warrior
"The chzech is in the maille"
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Fire Stryker
Admin & Advocatus Diaboli
Member # 2
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posted 07-15-2005 11:21 AM
Always plan for more than what you need. Unfortunately, very little in the way of saddles finds exist in the time period you portray. My area of specialty is 15th c. There have been a few speculative reconstructions based on icongraphic evidence and the occasional bit of a bow or cantle that appears. Iron finds like stirrups and bits seem to be the major survivors of the ravages of the refuse heap and time. I am not sure, I think Bascot (aka Seigneur de Leon) may have one that he got from Glen K. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any. -------------------- ad finem fidelis
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Seigneur de Leon
Member
Member # 65
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posted 07-16-2005 08:20 PM
11th - 12th C. Norman:  Made by Jessie Bailey, I believe. I can't give a report yet as my horse has gotten so fat recently that his normal tack won't fit him. Since I have to make a girth and chest collar, I've been holding off until I get him back in shape. But since we have been putting in a second pasture as well as working 10 hours a day, and the rain is incessant up here allowing for some lush grass, it may be a month before I get a chance to "play" with my boys. -------------------- VERITAS IN INTIMO
VIRES IN LACERTU
SIMPLICITAS IN EXPRESSO
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Gordon
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Member # 597
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posted 07-20-2005 04:42 PM
Very cool saddle, Seigneur. I admire it greatly! I am having a similar problem with my own horse at present though, he's gotten so fat on the lush grass here that it's difficult to buckle the girth! I ride him every day, but I guess just not enough...Cheers, Gordon -------------------- "After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
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Marque Hit Chenor
New Member
Member # 858
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posted 07-30-2005 04:46 AM
Salutations,
Thought I'd stick my oar in.
I have to agree with the prevailing opinion on the portugese saddles. Though they certainly look impressive, the only impression I've gained from trying one is the painful cleft on my inner thighs. Much like a western saddle they are broad, flat, hard and have as much give as a block of concrete. I must admit I am biased for I'm only used to english saddles. I am 6'2" slim and thin hipped and tend to plow furrows in the ground if I drop my heels too low. All my saddles are dressage or 3 way convertible eventing saddles (invariably in the dressage position) because the flaps on an all purpose catch and roll on my boot tops. I prefer as little between my legs and the horse as possible as almost all my aids come from the leg. In Australia I played a lot of polo and polocrosse and tried the Aussie stock saddle but found the dresage more use full to keep in the saddle. With these sports you spend a lot of time in extreme positions in all directions and need a firm grip on the horse. Extended pommels, cantels and pads do little but impede or downright cripple if you do not have a firm seat and vice grip legs. With jousting saddles the raised cantel may seem to insure a deep seated security from tipping, but if your legs are not actively involved with the horses torso and musculature ie.just sitting on the horse, you risk eventual damage to the cantel, saddle tree and the horses and your own spine. Even western saddles are designed to take lateral impact force toward the front or pommel in a pulling motion as in calf roping, not a backward force as in joust impact. Most of the "medieval" saddles I've seen or heard about are usually redesigned prototypes that often have rudimentary or solidly or not cosmetic cantels and pommel plates that fare even worse. Strong leg contact with balance integrates your body with the muscular-skeletal system of the horses shoulders much like a Pegasus' wings maintaing the horse's balance and transfering strength and impact resistance through the hind quaters to the ground. The portugese and western saddles spread and disable your legs (unless they're bowed like a cowboy's)
I mean no offence to those who ride western.(I should know better as an Englishman in America)
I converted a Wintec dressage saddle that had been superficially damaged in a barn fire ie. melted, with success.They are cheap and simple to strip down to the tree which is a heavy grade plastic on a spring metal tree spine. Using 3/4" Bucky board (Flexible,1 directional plywood)and thick metal slats (the larger pre-drilled 8" bars you get in the hardware store} I mounted them to the tree as cantal and pommelguards, bolting them to the tree's underside centrally and on each side in positions that would not interfere with horse contact areas or comprimise tree strength. I then coated the cantel and pommel,including the metal mounts and onto the saddle's plastic tree with fibeglass and two layers of the woven flexible fiberglass fabric (all available from an automotive store)Now is a good opportunity to calculate where to put "D" rings clips etc. for your barding, weapons etc. Screw them to the tree with a strip of metal and seal them with a dob of fiberglass resin. (again make sure the screws or bolts do not interfere with you when mounted or the surface of the horse)
I re-attatched the original underflaps and padding(they were in one piece)with deep staples and screws for strength, then fashioned the outer flaps in one large rectangular pad that scewed and stappled in much the same places as the original flaps.
I then upholstered the cantel and pommel with high density foam, canvas and the finished suede(it's a good idea to quilt line sew the outer fabrick with a thin layer of batting or Dacron before you upholster to the surface. Upholstering the seat can be tricky (pattern fitting and the need for a secure seat in riding)I happen to know upholstery, which helps, but when you strip the saddle , if you note and keep track of what you remove you will see how simply (at least the "Wintec")it is made and back engineering with your modifications will not be that difficult.
You may want to leave the original seat in place (its black,neutral and waterproof)in which case you will have to semi upholster the inside and bottom ridge of the cantel and pommel plates BEFORE you mount and fiberglass them to the tree, and afterwards stretch the fabric over the cantel and pommel to the outsides and finish them off with external armour plates that screw into the plywood or leather or fabric pieces with upholstery tacks or stitching. I used guilded decorative roping that I pre-stiched to the fabric. these help disguise joins, seams and the gaps that SHOULD exist along the bottom edges on the lateral sides of the cantel and pommel plates. (The "wings" on each side of the cantal and pommell plates need to have room to give, if you change horses or they gain weight.)
Take note not to build your pommel area below the original gusset depth. Try to keep all your modifications on the top surface so as not to interfere with the original fit and design of the saddle against the horse. On my saddle, contrary to period style I maintained the stirrup leather entrance that exists on the modern english saddle as opposed to stirrups that hang beneath the outer flaps as do portugese and spanish saddles. I just find it more convenient, less stressful on the saddle and safer for exiting(at the head of a lance)
I must admit it seems intimidating when you look at a saddle, but these Wintecs are not only cheap ($150 new, less 2nd hand) but durable, simply constructed, in materials that work well for modification ie staples, fiberglass, stitchable synthetics as opposed to leather (easier on your sewing machine),water and rustproof, safe and above all, comfortable,flexible, forgiving and close quatered to your steed. If needs be, speak to a sadder(do they still exist, or have they gone the way of the butcher?) or an upholsterer for advice. I doubt they would even charge and would probably appreciate the challenge and novelty. Though be aware that an upholsterer may not be aware of the dynamics of a horse and saddle.
Granted my burnt saddle cost me nothing but I spent no more than $90 mostly on fiberglass, 4'x8' bucky board, suede, and a few general things from the hardware store.
The end result, with a little time and effort is a very authentic looking medieval saddle with all the pros and comforts of an english saddle for you and your horse.
I'm probably going to time out so I should post this so I dont have to start all over again. Good luck. Idem fidelis servilis ex anima fratres Marque
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Peter Lyon
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Member # 232
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posted 07-30-2005 04:46 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Marque Hit Chenor:
If needs be, speak to a sadder(do they still exist, or have they gone the way of the butcher?) or an upholsterer for advice. I doubt they would even charge and would probably appreciate the challenge and novelty.
Marque
Saddlers do indeed still exist, but finding one who understands the functional differences between a modern and medieval saddle is more difficult. I am very lucky in my current project (a working reproduction of the Henry V saddle) to have found the "perfect" saddler. He is the third generation of his family to be a saddler, his father worked in the Royal Mews in the 1950s, and he has done a lot of study of old style saddlery (this isn't a big part of the apprenticeships, understandably they concentrate on modern saddlery). Oh, and he is so fascinated by the idea of working on a saddle that has hardly ever been reproduced properly (I only know of one other) that he has offered to work with me for only the materials costs - in fact, I'm having to push him to accept payment for giving up his time, as I feel embarassed about using his skills without compensation. And just for the cherry on top, he lives in the same suburb of Wellington as me, only 1km away, and we work in the same building. But if anyone wants to make a "medieval" saddle, it is critical to find a saddler who will think outside the box, rather than telling you to change things just to suit modern thinking and practises.
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Gwen
Member
Member # 126
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posted 07-31-2005 02:50 AM
Saddle made for Tobias Capwell by Robert MacPherson, June, 2005Capwell saddle, side (large image) Capwell saddle, side front (large image) Robert MacPherson assisted by Marianne Hansen. Photos by Marianne Hansen, all rights reserved. The saddle is part of a complete garniture:  Toby Capwell at the Royal Armouries Live tournament July 16-17 2005, Museum of Scottish Country Life in Kilbride, Scotland. Armoured saddle for war Saddle made by Jeffrey Hedgecock, 2001 Gwen [ 07-31-2005: Message edited by: Ginevra ]
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chef de chambre
Admin & Advocatus Diaboli
Member # 4
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posted 07-31-2005 08:30 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Marque Hit Chenor:
Peter,
There's nothing "sadder" than a saddler missing his L's (my typo) I'm glad to see a true art has not yet died, at least in NZ. When I lived in Aus. 18 years ago we knew several saddlers but from what Ive experienced in NY in the U.S. the best you can hope for is to take it to a commercial tack shop and expect postcards for the next two months from India, Mexico or China where ever they fancied to commission out to.
Maybe you should document and photograph the progression for prosperity and post the endeavor. (No doubt you have already begun)
Who knows, perhaps your saddler could take on a medieval apprentice and commercially produce a few. If the costs and design could be stream lined there would be many world wide willing to invest in one.
God knows we spend enough time, effort and safety on armour, you would think the saddle should be of utmost importance in any complete harness.
Its good to speak to Kiwi again. I miss you lot down there. Cheers,
Marque.
Hi Marque, Wow, it sounds like you are living 'amongst the Heathans", equestrian-wise. We have several local saddlers here in NH, although mostly using commercial trees to make them, one can make a custom tree. There is a good fellow down in Texas as well, for who custom trees are no problem. As you can see, several Medieval saddles have already been made in the US from the "ground up". -------------------- Bob R.
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Peter Lyon
Member
Member # 232
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posted 08-01-2005 03:53 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Marque Hit Chenor:
Peter,
I'm glad to see a true art has not yet died, at least in NZ. When I lived in Aus. 18 years ago we knew several saddlers but from what Ive experienced in NY in the U.S. the best you can hope for is to take it to a commercial tack shop and expect postcards for the next two months from India, Mexico or China where ever they fancied to commission out to.
Maybe you should document and photograph the progression for prosperity and post the endeavor. (No doubt you have already begun)
Who knows, perhaps your saddler could take on a medieval apprentice and commercially produce a few. If the costs and design could be stream lined there would be many world wide willing to invest in one.
God knows we spend enough time, effort and safety on armour, you would think the saddle should be of utmost importance in any complete harness.
Its good to speak to Kiwi again. I miss you lot down there. Cheers,
Marque.
Saddlers today can have a hard time. Mike was selling leatherwork out of a little shop, and about to pack it all in - cheap Asian and Indian imports had almost killed his business. I don't think there will be much of a market for making these saddles, the problem being they really need to be fitted to individual horses and there will probably never be any production-line potential. But you never know. Saddles like Jeff's and Toby's are very expensive, partly for the making but also the need to recover the costs of research for a one-off project. The Henry V in particular is also quite different from modern saddles, and is a very specialised type. I suspect the biggest thing stopping the production of more of these saddles, is the difficulty and cost of pulling together all the research and analysing it. I am fully documenting everything I do on this, partly for future academic work; but also so I can put together a package for anyone interested in the Henry V saddle in particular. A lot of the stuff I have sourced is copyright, so I can't reproduce it for others to use. But I'm thinking of compiling my research on the saddle, its history, and what is known of its maker, along with notes on what I learn from building it, the full size working drawings (which I am currently still working on, I won't be actually starting to build anything until late August), and eventually the experience of riding in this saddle and using it in tourneys and riding. This way other people would be able to make their own saddle, and decide whether to go to the degree I am, or just used some of the features of the original.
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Peter Lyon
Member
Member # 232
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posted 08-01-2005 03:57 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Ginevra:
Saddle made for Tobias Capwell by Robert MacPherson, June, 2005
Robert MacPherson assisted by Marianne Hansen. Photos by Marianne Hansen, all rights reserved.The saddle is part of a complete garniture:
Toby Capwell at the Royal Armouries Live tournament July 16-17 2005, Museum of Scottish Country Life in Kilbride, Scotland. Saddle made by Jeffrey Hedgecock, 2001 Gwen [ 07-31-2005: Message edited by: Ginevra ]
Thanks for posting those photos, Gwen. These are the first closeups I have seen of Toby's saddle, and it is stunning. Art combined with function.
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Diana Peterson
Member
Member # 749
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posted 08-01-2005 11:24 AM
Having used a variety of saddles for a variety of purposes (ranging from cattledriving to reining to packing to medieval reinactment) I'd say there's a use for the spanish saddles.They do have the general look which is otherwise impossible to buy off the rack. They can also be a comfortable seat IF you and your horse are not narrowly built. The saddle seems to fit horses best that have a well sprung rib-cage, such as Andalusians and Morgans. There is less contact between the rider and horse than there is with english saddles, which I think comes as no surprise, but more than the standard western saddles due to the lack of excess leather supporting the stirrups. I completely recommend breastcollar and crupper when using these saddles; apparently many medieval saddles had this issue as well, due to the ubiquitous presence of breastcollars and cruppers in period imagery. It may well be that many saddles in the medieval eras were not 'the best' compared to modern saddles, or at least for our modern styles of riding. I think that has to be taken into account in just the same way that medieval shoes may not be the best for jogging or for people who prefer arch support. Love em for what they are. In some ways, I think the spanish saddles replicate some of those medieval saddle qualities, but we are all theorizing here. Obviously, any master-crafted saddle made to fit a specific horse and rider is always superior to something off the rack. ---Diana---
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Fire Stryker
Admin & Advocatus Diaboli
Member # 2
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posted 08-01-2005 01:50 PM
I've been studying various saddles (and primary equestrian related documents: horses and horsemanship) for the better part of 5 years now and think that the medieval saddler was in many ways just as accomplished as their modern counter parts. Possibly more so. But with many professions you have the superior, the middle, and inferior (which you would not likely be where guilds are found).There are guild records (Paris, Amiens, Limoges, and bits from London) that tell how a saddle was made and what it should be made from. What could and could not be done in the making of the saddles. Trees had to be "naked" when viewed by the masters. You couldn't use certain metals in certain areas of a saddle or paint unless the customer specifically asked for it. They had not only accountability to the masters of the craft, but also the king in some cases. Some of the ordinances in Paris ended with "failure to comply with the ordinances" ended up with seizure of your saddle and having it BURNED or receiving a stiff fine and still having your saddle burned. You couldn't practice the trade in some cities unless you were a master or a master had viewed your work and found it suitable. So, they had quality control. If you were a saddler in the country side, chances were that you could make an inferior product, but you'd get in trouble if you tried to sell it in the city. We have to be careful thinking that these crafts people who dealt with these animals for the entire lives didn't know what they were about. Also, like today, they had different saddles for different functions. Can you use and english saddle for jousting? Some would argue yes. Should you? Probably not, since that is not what the saddle was designed for. They had hunting saddles, riding saddles, saddles for war, etc... The Spanish and Portuguese saddles generally have a specific function in mind. In the case of the portuguesa, it's most likely Bull Fighting. quote:
Also, that no seat of a saddle be nailed with nails of tin, but only with nails of iron, under the same penalty.
Also, that no sewing nor skirts be nailed with nails of tin nor of pewter, if they be not well and lawfully rivetted with iron or with latten, under penalty beneath written.
Also that no saddle nor harness be ornamented with old cloth instead of new cloth, under the penalty aforesaid.
Also, that no alien nor foreigner of the said mistery coming to the said City be suffered to keep house or shop, but that he be first examined by the four masters of the said mistery, who are elected and sworn, whether he be able and sufficient to work in the said mistery or not. And if he be able and sufficient, that they cause him to come before you that he may be acknowledged as good and sufficient before the commonalty according to the requirements of the franchise of the City, under the same penalty.
Just to give you an idea. 
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Fennguard
Member
Member # 771
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posted 08-01-2005 08:36 PM
Good info all 
alas as things are going now I believe I will just have to use my western saddle (it's paid for!)for now. I do have an old tree to work from & even if I don't end up with a usable saddle I am sure to learn from my mistakes.
The tree is from an old 13 inch youth western saddle, so it will never see the back of a horse, but I seems to be a good way to learn.Thanks much everyone & please keep the topic running. Lee -------------------- 11th century slovakian warrior
"The chzech is in the maille"
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posted 07-13-2005 06:43 PM
