Last weekend we had a Jousting Event in Holland at Kasteel de Haar, organised by myself Medieval Productions
Photos of the event, which was a success can be found here Kropot Photos, Knights of The Haar. Hope you all like them.

Cheers
Joram

[ 05-26-2004: Message edited by: Joram van Essen ]

[ 05-26-2004: Message edited by: Joram van Essen ]

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as I said on the other forum, beautiful job. Your event gives a nice feel and a wonderful impression. You look mah-volous!

Thank you for sharing your event photos. They are truly inspiring.

Cheers,

Jenn

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Gordon Frye

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Thanks, Ive been working hard to get to this stage. I hope in a year I will also be able to make the tournament larger, so I can get good quality jousters from around the world to come over and join in. Now just need to convince the NZ jousters that the 15th C is the way forward :-)

Cheers
Joram

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URL=http://www.jousting.co.nz

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And 1460's Burgundians Rock. Besides, we can use a list historically (introduced to Burgundy in the 1430s from Portugal).

And I personally dont like the look of 16th C armour or clothing...

Cheers

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Jeff and I hope to be able to put on an event like this someday, so reading about your experience and how you put it together really helps- Thanks!

Gwen

Edited to say "Jeff and I hope to be able to put on an event like this *someday*" rather than "in a year or so" - I was being way too optimistic to think we could do it in a year. Maybe 2 years though!

On another note. If you do organise international tournaments with a very defined period, then you will find that you are limiting the number of competitors available. Not everyone is into the same period. Some prefer 14th century, some 15th and some 16th.

edited because the pic was a bit big.

[ 06-07-2004: Message edited by: Rodric ]

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If it's either of the photos you posted to In the Lists, it could be said that you look like 'a bird who's swallowed a plate' (to quote Edmund Blackadder.) Seriosly though, I saw your outfits and it's a nice go at Elizabethan. The ruff isn't worn over the collar of the doublet though, it's worn under it and helps to support it up under your chin.

Yes, I know we're limiting the field but our vision is a historically correct 15th C. joust such as Joram is striving for, not simply to joust, and the 'extreme sport' aspect you so enjoy doesn't even figure into the equasion. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

I was able to see it fine, but then again I am sitting behind a T-1 at the moment.

Tha's strange, I am on a dial up connection and an old 600MHz Pentium and it works fine for me. Your system must be REALLY old.

>If it's either of the photos you posted to In the Lists, it could be said that you look like 'a bird who's swallowed a plate' (to quote Edmund Blackadder.)<

I know, isn't it just a wonderful look.

>Seriosly though, I saw your outfits and it's a nice go at Elizabethan.<

We used the patterns from Janet Arnolds book. The materials are a cheat as we will be wearing them under armour, so we used a cotton/linen to be a bit heavier wearing. We also need to finish our hose.

>The ruff isn't worn over the collar of the doublet though, it's worn under it and helps to support it up under your chin.<

How? So wear the ruff lower around the collar of the doublet?

>Yes, I know we're limiting the field but our vision is a historically correct 15th C. joust such as Joram is striving for<

Which is fine if you don't mind having the same 6 people to joust against. We have held period specific events before and they are usually private events though we have held a couple as a public event. Callum has also done the same I believe.

Having a specific 14th century tournament isn't really a problem for us as we all have 14th century equipment. It's when we start inviting other jousters to come down that we have to compromise. We wouldn't expect Jeff to have to get a completely new 14thc harness to compete at our event.

Holding an international event and wanting more jousters means having to compromise. Now that Jeff is running as a chapter of the IJA means that whilst he can strongly suggest that the 15th century is the place to be, he cannot actually stop someone from wanting to joust simply because they prefer the 14th or the 16th. If you are holding IJA events and the person fulfills the kit requirements then he can play.

> and the 'extreme sport' aspect you so enjoy doesn't even figure into the equasion.<

Well it should. Just because you are holding an historically correct event doesn't mean that you still can't have an exciting, hard hitting joust.

Also, don't take yourself too seriously. I've seen events where we did the full Rene' bit (albeit in a 14thc sense) and the crowd started to walk away as it bored them to tears, so we cut it short and went straight into the joust and combats. Whilst at a private event we enjoyed all the pomp and ceremony your average Joe Public has the attention span of a gnat.

I do enjoy the 'extreme sport' side of the joust, I also equally enjoy the historically accurate side. I have realised that if I want to joust and joust a lot, then I need to make some compromises. I have moved into the 16thC because that is the best style of armour for the Plankengestech. I have had my new harness built in stainless steel as I couldn't get spring steel armour in Australia and I needed the extra strength.

As we have spent so much on the new gear we have incorparated it into our new show. We now present a joust show with the premise being that we are practising for the Accesion Day Tilts of Queen Elizabeth. Of course being Tudor Gentlemen we are expected to be witty, charming and funny so this gives us the opportunity to not only joust and show our skill at arms but also to banter with the crowd and the ladies.
As you said it is important to have a story and not just indulge in the joust.

As I have mentioned to Jeff elsewhere I do intend to order a Hedgecock Stechzeug harness in spring steel sometime in the next 3 years. This is a style of joust I very much want to do...... well lets face it, I want to do them all.

Anyhoo I think I have rambled on long enough.

Hope to catch up with you both when I am over.

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Unless Callum has misinformed me, or I’ve misunderstood what he’s told me, I am able to make the rules for tournaments I hold here more specific than the general IJA rules. That is, as long as the overall spirit of the organization is not compromised. As I understand it, he meant that I could direct IJA USA toward the 15th century if I so choose.

Yes, there are fewer jousters who have 15th century armour, but I could at this moment easily invite nearly a dozen, who would love to come to an IJA style tournament in the States. Chances are, if I sponsor a tournament here, it will probably not be IJA sanctioned, as I would invite specific people, for various reasons (primarily mindset, horsmanship and harness), and would set the event in a rather specific period, certainly 15th century, since that’s what I’m interested in putting my organizing effort into. If there are fewer participants because I frame the event within a specific period, so be it. I am not a believer in quantity over quality. Should anyone other than me wish to put together a wider period tournament, they would have my blessing and I’d probably enjoy the opportunity to joust if I’m asked.

I disagree with Callum in thinking that a particular participant won’t stand out if they’re wearing armour from the same period as everyone else. Yes, the audience notices equipment right off, but what sticks with them is individual's performance, not their gear. Personally, I don’t think making a tournament period specific would reduce crowd appeal whatsoever. What’s more important is that all participants have a crisp, “together” and well-maintained kit. My experience is that most people like the historical stuff better, when it’s done well, though most could not tell you why if asked. I think sticking to historical styles just strikes the eye better and overall just “works”, though it’s difficult for the layman to pinpoint quite why.

Frankly, I don’t particularly like Elizabethan armour. Yes, it offers many options for garnitures and exchange pieces. But, it’s a really easy style to screw up in the making, both functionally and aesthetically. If it’s made amateurishly, it’s some of the most god-awfully ugly armour on earth. I’ve known only three armourers in the US and 2 in England who could make Elizabethan armour that looked like what it’s supposed to, and make it attractive. I find 14th or 15th century armour to be more accessible by less experienced armourers.

Honestly, I’m getting sick to death of the idea that a joust can’t be interesting and appealing to the audience unless the participants are destroying each other by “hitting hard.” Of the jousting I’ve watched, the most interesting is where lances break spectacularly. I don’t give a rat’s patoot if someone gets unhorsed. I’d rather see someone stay on after a solid strike and prove that they have a strong seat, are in control of their horse and their bodies. Just because jousting is potentially dangerous doesn’t mean that the participants have to get destroyed at each tournament to prove they’re good jousters. It seems to me that if you’re a good jouster, you should come away from a tournament without getting hurt or unhorsed. Bragging about injuries from a joust just seems stupid to me, yet many of the jousters whose posts I’ve read on various boards boast about how broke up they were after their last joust. I believe it just shows that either the bragger isn’t as good as they should be, or they’re poorly equipped, or they’re participating in something that’s foolhardy. For my part, jousting is dangerous enough as it is without injecting a large dose of unnecessary risk. I’d like to joust for several years, several times a year, not just one tournament annually because I must spend the balance of the year recuperating from injuries sustained in the last one. That’s mostly why the IJA style of jousting appeals to me, as I’ve discussed with Callum. It allows you to get up and do it again the next day, without worrying too much about whether you’ll end up in hospital.

I honestly believe that the primary reason that some people in the US think that audiences only like “extreme” jousts is because they’ve never seen anything else. Because of the groups and shows currently operating here, the perception seems to be that the viewing public is only interested in the “good guy vs. bad guy--bikers/wrestlers on horseback--extreme sports” type joust and that everything less violent will be boooooooooooring. I think it’s because there is currently little or no alternative. I hope that when the IJA style joust gets an opportunity to take hold here, within the proper framework, that people will see that it’s a reasonable way to joust without unreasonable risk and that audiences will find it just as interesting and exciting as what others are doing.

The most important oversight Jeff made is in not stressing that we're interested in recreating a historical event- NOT putting on a modern or pseudo-medievaloide spectator sport for a paying public. Don't get me wrong, I won't object if the thing pays for itself, but our primary and overwhelming goal is organizing/sponsoring something historical that the participants enjoy. We can't put together a joust based on Rene' if the participants all have different style armours and kits.

Well here in Europe the largest period for jousting in anything resembling historically accurate gear is the 15th C. 12 of us at the Armouries last year and this year, and In my last count about 30 around England, France, Belgium, Holland and Germany and Norway, that I know of, who have the gear and the ability to joust in the Breaking Balsa Style, and growing each year.

My next goal is getting more people into Frog Mouth Jousting Helms so I can do more stuff with Solid Lances. However in my opinion, the Balsa jousting is a good way of putting on an entertaining, yet still mostly historical, joust for a paying public. The balsa is a bit easier on the armour, so I can do the 30+ jousts I have this year without spending a fortune on fixing it and, the extra risk of injuring myself, that solid lances give.
However the full contact of solid lances and frog mouth is also great, but I prefer to do that more for my own enjoyment, than as part of the job Im doing when jousting for a paying crowd. Maybe that will change over time.

As for what the crowds want, Im finding more and more, if you go to the original records of how jousts were done (such as the story lines and themes they often had), then the public enjoys them a lot more than the string mail, jump through fire, fall off at the drop of a hat, old hashed hollywood style jousts that still linger like a bad smell in parts of Europe...

Cheers
Joram

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Firstly Jeffrey is correct in that there is nothing stopping individual clubs steering their members towards a specific period and holding period specific events or specific tournament styles under the IJA umbrella.

I know that Rod is working on an Elizabethan style tournament using modified IJA rules and I am working on a late 14th Century tournament format allowing targeting the crest of the helmet again under modified IJA rules – and there is nothing stopping other specialist or period-specific events like these under our umbrella providing that our core principles are not compromised.

What we are about is developing jousting as a world wide sport, while being as inclusive as possible yet making as few compromises to historical accuracy as possible. We developed rules for the ecranche shield/frangible lance style of joust as this particular style persisted for several centuries thus allowing a wide range of like minded groups and individuals to compete together in a hard hitting yet reasonably safe style of joust regardless if their individual period of interest lies in the 14th, 15th or 16th centuries. If this makes our larger international tournaments pseudo medieval/fantasy events then I make no apologies.

However I think that anybody who attends one of our tournaments would be pleasantly surprised by the efforts we make to keep things as historically accurate as possible. Alan Larsen who marshaled our 2003 IJA World Championships rated our event and the standard of jousting displayed at least as good as he had seen at the Armouries or elsewhere in Europe, and our attention to horse care and welfare as being superior.

I do agree with Jeffrey’s views on the extreme side of the sport but if people want to engage in this and put themselves at serious risk of injury then it’s their business not mine. However jousting is by its very nature a dangerous sport and there is always an element of personal risk. For many of us it is this element of personal risk that gives the sport some of its appeal. Even though we have tried to reduce as much as possible the chance of a serious injury in the IJA style of joust by not encouraging dismounts and instead emphasising the skills of lance placement and horsemanship required to fully shatter a partially cut 3 foot balsa tip, injuries in our style of joust can still occur. Dismounts still happen and riders are occasionally struck by lance deflections off the ecranche that can cause minor injuries. According to people who have done both, our style of joust is harder hitting than practiced in the UK or Europe but despite this I would not call our style of joust extreme.

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URL=http://www.jousting.co.nz

Some of the extreme sport types are also totally missing the point in my opinion, they don't give a toss about history, just want to hit and be hit.

First, my disclaimer: I am new to much of this. So new, in fact, that I’m still training and have not yet crossed lances with another rider. I’m also new to historically accurate pursuit of re-enactment (after 20+ years in the SCA.) What can I say… I’m a late bloomer

With that in mind, I realize that many of you might toss my words aside like so much chaff. However, I am also a snowboarder, skier, biker (mountain, road, and motor) and I’ve flown and jumped from quite a few airplanes, as well as being a horseman…

It has been my experience that the goal of participation in anything considered extreme is to perform the action *without* sustaining injury. Granted, the potential for injury exists and defines the extremity of the action, but it is the “avoidance” of injury through the application of skill that defines one’s level of “sickness”… and I mean that in the most positive of ways

To many people the simple act of mounting a horse is extreme; add armor and collisions to that equation and you have an extreme sport. It seems to me that some may be splitting a hair over the “degree of extreme”, that’s kind of like a back-country snowboarder arguing with a half-pipe boarder over “who’s more radical.”

I find that the IJA standard (at least that which I’ve been able to garner from the website) fits almost exactly into the framework of the group that I’m starting (e.g., one of our influential events is the 1390 Tourney of St. Inglevert at Calais)… we *want* to do the early stuff. But our focus will be on historical accuracy over audience enjoyment. However, I still expect to feel the very same adrenaline rush I feel when participating in any of my other crazy hobbies