Having said that:

How much of it is historical and how much of the "correctness" of aside is a manifestation of later centuries? We see a mix of riding styles in the 15th c. imagery.

It is said that Anne(a) of Bohemia introduced side saddles to England in the 12th c(?). Can anyone cite the actual historical reference?

I've looked on and off, but can never find an exact reference. I haven't looked at the book "Fair Lady Aside" and don't know if it would mention specifics. In any case, the comment tends to be accepted as a given, yet I have never seen anyone supply the source that mentions it.

There is a medieval ghost story that refers to side saddles (12th or 13th c) in a story about torments in hell. I will look up the reference. It certainly sounded hellish.

So I guess the question is, is one style more correct than the other? Is it a "class distinction"?

I've made a fair number of gowns for use on horseback, so let me tell you what I know and see from a seamstress' point of view.

When a woman rides asride in a long skirt, she has the option of pulling her skirts under her bottom and around her legs in one direction or the other (front or back) so that she's sitting on the gown. This takes some maneuvering to do and winds up seriously crushing the skirt, not to mention the potential for wedgies. Flappage is reduced by sitting on the skirt, but as I say it takes some serious maneuvering to get it into place, and the risk of damage to the skirt is high.

The other option for riding asride is to sit directly on the saddle and to pull the skirt out over the horse's rump and bunch the rest over the cantle in the front. In this case it it difficult to keep enough skirt available to adequately cover the legs. This position makes the skirt highly suseptible to *serious* flappage.

I developed a skirt for equestrian use that has a pair of pallazo pants built in under a full overskirt; when riding the contact of the pants between the leg and saddle/horse keep the legs fully covered and prevent any flapping at all. When made up in contrasting fabrics it looks like a Tudor split front skirt; when made up in matching fabrics it just looks like a skirt. There's no bunching over the front of the saddle at all, and the full overskirt allows the "draped over the rump" look so beloved of equestriennes.

For riding aside (both legs on the same side of the horse), if the skirt is too full it acts as a sail and will balloon. Victorian riding habits are extremely tailored for this reason, and some even have weights sewn into the hems. The skirt is actually a sort of backwards "h" shaped- slim around the legs but the hump of the "h" allows the knee to be hooked over the sidesaddle. The "h" gets buttoned up into a bit of a bustle for walking. It's an insane but very functional design.

I've seen period illos where women are apparently riding aside and others where they are apparently riding astride; it's difficult to say what is "usual". I suspect that like most things in history form is related to function, social class, activity, region, local custom, etc. Although a fascinating topic, I am unaware of any sort of study that examines the relationship of certain styles of clothing as worn for different mounted activitis such as travel, hunting or steeplechasing pre 17th C.

[ 12-20-2001: Message edited by: Templar Bob ]

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I've looked on and off, but can never find an exact reference. I haven't looked at the book "Fair Lady Aside" and don't know if it would mention specifics. In any case, the comment tends to be accepted as a given, yet I have never seen anyone supply the source that mentions it.

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The Fair Lady Aside is a great book about sidesaddle "traditions" but is woefully short on historical reference. It does pump up the romance.

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So I guess the question is, is one style more correct than the other? Is it a "class distinction"?

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One of my former riding instructors who did sidesaddle for years told me that "during the early middle ages sometimes men rode sidesaddle too--especially clergy." Now, this wasn't something she cited references for at all, but it is something interesting enough to investigate. There are illuminations showing men facing out with both legs on the same side of the horse, but whether that's artistic license or not would be something to look into as well.

Also, remember that the practice of facing forward with a leg over a horn is fairly recent. The second horn, known as the "leaping horn" is a Victorian invention to assist a lady staying on over fences. When the practice of facing forward and hooking a leg over a horn arrived in the sidesaddle world is anyone's guess. Catherine de Medici is often given credit (including I believe in "The Fair Lady Aside"--it's been years since I looked at the book) for the development as she was an avid huntress. The earlier sidesaddles were more like a chair--many even had "hand rails" around the top--where a lady faced completely sideways and rested her feet on a plank of suspended wood known as a planchette. There is an extant example of this style from the 17th century in "The Horse through 50 centuries of civilization" (I think Anthony Dent is the author) and another one from the Hermes museum in France tentatively dated to the 17th century. So it would be fair to say that it would be at least appropriate to use the style in a 15th century impression. There are some woodcuts in "The Venerie" of George Turberville (c. 1572) of Elizabeth I of England hunting that clearing show her saddle having a planchette and no horns.

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Victorian riding habits are extremely tailored for this reason, and some even have weights sewn into the hems. The skirt is actually a sort of backwards "h" shaped- slim around the legs but the hump of the "h" allows the knee to be hooked over the sidesaddle. The "h" gets buttoned up into a bit of a bustle for walking. It's an insane but very functional design.

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Riding "habits" are usually considered Victorian in development. They were also always made by tailors--not seamstresses. Riding habit patterns from the Godey's Lady's Book have a skirt that is shoe length on the off side and front, with a trailing "train" effect on the near side and around the back--thereby giving that wonderful shape we see in Victorian pictures. And yes, the ladies wore breeches underneath, not pantelets. (As a side note, many habit skirts were not hemmed either--if a woman came unseated, you wanted nothing to catch on the saddle horns.)

The Ellesmere Manuscript in the 15th century shows the Wife of Bath riding astride in ordinary clothes. Other examples include female riders in "The Effects of Good Government" by Lorenzeti, the sisters and cousin of Lorenzo de Medici, from the fresco,
Journey of the Magi by Benozzo Gozzoli in the Riccardi chapel ca.1459 and possibly even Queen Isabel of France's painting by Velasquez, but that painting is open to a little debate.

Tre Riches Heures of the Duc de Berry show women riding sidesaddle in their regular clothing as does "The Lady and the Landsknecht" by Albrech Durer ca.1495

You have some room for variation, whatever your class I think. The style of saddle is probably more locked in than what you wore when you rode in it.

Check out http://ilaria.veltri.tripod.com/sidesaddle.html for a fair approximation of the way you would sit in a saddle with a planchette. I've never tried one of those, but I've ridden in a modern sidesaddle and I have to say I found the forward facing style with a leaping horn was quite secure, even at a gallop.

Brenna

[ 12-21-2001: Message edited by: Brenna ]

[ 12-21-2001: Message edited by: Brenna ]

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Three things

a) We have plenty of evidence of women riding both astride and side saddle. It may be a class thing, but I doubt it - I think it's more a case that it's hard to ride astride in a long elaborate dress, and you've got more chance of wearing one of those in the higher social classes.

A more likely distinction is that the same woman might well have ridden both ways, depending on circumstances - astride for practical travelling, side-saddle for "showing off".

b)Medieval sidesaddles suck. While you can do practically anything in a "modern" sidesaddle that you can astride, including jumping, those saddles don't turn up for a couple of hundred years after the date of your persona.

From pictorial evidence, there seem to be several kinds of sidesaddle around - a type where you're sitting facing forward as on a "modern" sidesaddle, but without the horns that secure your legs, and a godawful aberration where you actually sit sideways, both feet together on a kind of footboard.

I haven't really looked through my sources carefully enough to work out whether the difference is regional, geographic or what - I'm afraid I'm usually more concerned with cavalry saddles :-)

c)I'd be more comfortable saying that my persona rode in a style that I could actually ride in, rather than one I couldn't, if I had free choice - much less embarassing if you ever have to deliver on what your persona is supposed to know, either physically or if it comes up in conversation.

That said, sidesaddle is fairly easy to learn (...and yes, I am speaking from experience here. Just don't ask, OK?), and several of Janet Roger's horses are schooled for sidesaddle. If you do want to learn, speak to me at Jaki's on saturday.

Thanks for the reply - I'm afraid I haven't had time to read it before now!

That's pretty much what I was thinking (i.e. what I had managed to find out from the sources I have available).

Just one thing... sidesaddle? You? I HAVE to ask!

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Yes, I can ride sidesaddle, although I've only ever done so with a modern side saddle.

There is absolutely nothing remotely amusing about that fact. Honest.....