1) The Stibbert Museum (Florence, Italy) shows all its knights mounted on stallions. I have heard this was a common practice, but am curious if it is well documented. I have spoken with modern riders who say that "you'd have to be crazy to ride a 'stud'", but I have done so and survived. I didn't check under the horse before I got on, and the gentleman who owned the horse didn't mention it (don't ask - don't tell?).
[It was a very fast, powerful, exhilirating ride, culminating in a spontaneous horse-fight between my mount and my wife's -- another stallion! She vaulted off -- remember the "vaulting horse" in high school PE -- after my horse ripped her English saddle's leather skirt off from under her leg, and I torqued my mount's head away from it's enemy and got him to gallop off about 100 yards before we got them calmed down.] Anyway, did the warriors use stallions for destriers, and do any of the current riders do so? I have also hear that the Vienna Riding School Lippizaners are stallions, but that's more like a rumor -- anybody know for sure?

2) In the Stibbert Mus., and in the Met. Museum of Art, the bits (I think -- those metal things in the horses' mouths?) look like something invented by the Inquisition for weeding out heretics (another strand I'd like to open up -- how do we deal with religion in LH). Were these bits necessary for controlling a crazed stallion in the heat of battle, and does anybody nowadays use similar metalwork in their horsy harness? This raises the question of "just how accurate do we want to get, here?"

I look forward to the answers almost as much as I look forward to the opinions about where we draw the line. Some folks will be appalled at the idea of those metal contraptions, but others may feel they have some kind of place in a living history group. What do you say? I bet there's more than one point of view on this board.

Most pictorial evidence points to the idea that stallions were used, but it's difficult to know just how frequently. Based on the amount of statuary and paintings from the late 14th and 15th centuries, I would venture a guess that it was not unusual.

I have ridden two stallions, an andalusian (rode him while wearing armour) and a friesian. They were both fearless and the adalu didn't bat an eye about the armour from the very start.

We should not translate our modern opinions about stallions to medieval use of this sex of horse. Yes, stallions require different handling than mares or geldings, but we have only a very cursory knowledge and evidence for how stallions were handled and kept in period. I just reread Davis' book on the medieval warhorse (it's mostly about the earlier middle ages and mostly about breeding), and he primarily describes how stallions were kept in the "studs" (breeding parks), but doesn't realy go into how they were used in battle.

I believe the Lipizzaners in Vienna are primarily stallions, many rather young. The Austrians seems to know how to deal with stallions, so I would speculate that it's possible.

As irrelevant as I feel dressage is to medieval subjects, stallions are rather common in dressage circles. They seems to have the head for it.

Bits are a subject of much debate amongst scholars. There is little to no evidence of "how" these bit were used. Yes, the ones that get published regularly are the ones we consider cruel. This is probably because they appear unusual to our modern eyes. Remarkably, the simple snaffle is probably the most common bit of the MA (I have one in my collection). This makes me think that there was a range of bits, very much like today.

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Also, we should not assume that any degree of force was needed with these extreme bits. Perhaps if the bit had the "ability" to be cruel, it does not mean that the rider used its potential, except in the most extreme situations. Maybe the knight just wanted the reasurrance that it was there if he needed it.

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This is true. When one rides modern western, you use a curb bit, but as you are "neck reining" (laying the reins on the side of the neck opposite the direction you wish to go) the horse turns by your leg movement, weight shift and the reins "reminder". At no point are you pulling the horse's head in that direction. When you slow or stop the animal, only the amount of pressure needed is used, you never just jerk on the horse's mouth. Generally, I don't use any rein cues at all to switch gaits and slow. I shift my body position back and Merlin responds to what my balance is doing.
I also have an old broken snaffle, hand-forged, probably 200 years old. It looks exactly like a Viking one excavated from a grave. "Broken" refers to the pivot in the middle of the horse's mouth, as contrasting to a straight bar. It consists of two slightly curved pieces with eyes on both sides, interlocked in the middle, with two rings on the sides for the harness and reins to attach to. It looks a lot like a modern training snaffle, which is all we've ever used on Merlin. There have been times I WISHED I had a curb bit on that spooky horse though....
As far as stallions go, you just have to deal with the hormones when around mares. The only problems I've seen are bad training by poor horse owners, stallions only used for stud service (untrained horses), and aggressive nippings to women on their time of the month. John Lyons does all his seminars with a stallion, though I've got one tape where he is "unfurled in all his glory"! Most boarding stables won't take stallions because they can be a hassle, we could only find one that would when we broke a colt about 6 years ago.

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[It was a very fast, powerful, exhilirating ride, culminating in a spontaneous horse-fight between my mount and my wife's -- another stallion! She vaulted off -- remember the "vaulting horse" in high school PE -- after my horse ripped her English saddle's leather skirt off from under her leg, and I torqued my mount's head away from it's enemy and got him to gallop off about 100 yards before we got them calmed down.]

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Okay, let me first say that this scares the crap out of me. Both you and your animals could have been BADLY hurt. Whoever put you and your spouse in that situation was definitely not a friend or incredibly ignorant.

Some of the many "problems" modern owners/riders have with stallions is due to the manner in which they are handled. A stallion is an animal that needs consistent rules and firm RESPECTFUL handling. The stallions in the Spanish Riding School are worked, ridden and stalled next to each other. They DO NOT attack each other in the ring, in the aisle or over the stalls.

Ok, now that I have that off my chest, let's look at the stallion question.

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I believe the Lipizzaners in Vienna are primarily stallions, many rather young. The Austrians seems to know how to deal with stallions, so I would speculate that it's possible

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Only stallions are ridden at the Spanish Riding School. The mares remain at the stud farm in Piber and are not ridden.

In Spain, it was at one point a law that a nobleman could only be mounted on an stallion. I'm not sure when that went into effect but I do know it was in place by the time of Phillip V.

There are references in Crusader era Saracen writings (see Ann Hyland's book for some really nice translations) where the "Frankish" use of stallions is noted. Also noted are the successes of the Saracens causing problems for the European's horses because of the Saracens rode their mares into battle. Can you imagine what kind of a fuss that caused?

A stallion, correctly handled by a knowledgeable individual, is not the slavering monster that many modern people are convinced they are. From what I have read of period horse usage and having handled LOTS of stallions in modern competitive arenas, an experienced horseman or group of experienced horseman could easily have all been mounted on well-trained, well-disciplined stallions.

Hauptman said:

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As irrelevant as I feel dressage is to medieval subjects, stallions are rather common in dressage circles. They seems to have the head for it.

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He is correct, many upper level dressage horses are stallions. They thrive on the discipline and have a fire in performance that is very hard to duplicate in a mare or gelding. They also warm up in small rings loaded with other stallions, mares and geldings. They do not make a display, carry on or try to attack other horses. That is all due to the handling and the type of care they receive. Having an entire army mounted on stallions is not impossible as long as they were properly trained and handled. Now, finding full supporting evidence for it? That might require more research.

I believe it was the Discovery channel that broadcast the "Warhorse" series. I have it on tape of course Some of the things explained and shown in it are how an animal with a flight or fight mentality will follow his herd in flight (ie a charge toward the enemy) etc. Check it out if you get a chance, that might shed some more light on the subject for you.

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In the Stibbert Mus., and in the Met. Museum of Art, the bits (I think -- those metal things in the horses' mouths?) look like something invented by the Inquisition for weeding out heretics (another strand I'd like to open up -- how do we deal with religion in LH). Were these bits necessary for controlling a crazed stallion in the heat of battle, and does anybody nowadays use similar metalwork in their horsy harness? This raises the question of "just how accurate do we want to get, here?"

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Many of the bits in period (as are many modern ones) are cruel and inhumane in the WRONG hands. Most modern horsepeople are horrified when they see the cathedral spade bits used by modern Mexican charros. However, these men rely primarily on neck reining and a light touch, so the spade almost never is used aggressively. I think (and this is only my opinion) that in many cases, the bits we see "left over" from the medieval period were there only for extra insurance. Again, in my opinion, the medieval mounted man had to have a horse that responded mostly to a form of neck reining and leg cues--no amount of shanked bit is going to turn a horse when you have one hand taken up with at weapon and one hand on the reins.

I personally believe that unless you are a good enough horseman to use one properly, using a period shank bit with a high port would be nothing short of total abuse of your mount. I know they were used, plenty of illuminations and leftovers prove that, but I don't think a LH person without proper abilities should use one on a horse just because they are "correct" for their period. At some point, humanity should take over.

Just my two cents,
Brenna

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I have been told by horse breeders that most working stallions are not studs. Once they are used for breeding they are retired and used expressly for that purpose, as hormones take over and they tend to become more aggressive and single minded. I imagine as with most things this is not an all or nothing rule and that some breeding stallions have a temperment that allows them to breed while they are still working. Hopwever, as I understand it being "put out to stud" means they are used for that purpose alone.

I imagine that is why it is possible to have a group of stallions working in harmony, such as at the Spanish Riding School. There is also an article in the last issue of "Dressage Today" (sorry, I know it's a modern source!) that talks about a world class dressage school in Portugal that uses stallions. If the stallions were a danger, I hardly think they would provide them for their student's use. The author of the story describes them as being playful, well trained and a pleasure to work with.

"Were these bits necessary for controlling a crazed stallion in the heat of battle, and does anybody nowadays use similar metalwork in their horsy harness? This raises the question of "just how accurate do we want to get, here?"

The answer to the necessity of these bits for controling a crazed stallion in the heat of battle seems to be "yes, likely", since these bits are often associated with the other pieces of war tack. However, bits with long bars may be a fashion or part of a 15th C. rididng style. I'm looking through the Tres Riches Heurs right here, and many of these pleasure horses are being ridden in bits with long bars; even the plow horse has a bit with long bars. There also seems to be as many "ring" bits without long bars. In any case, it's hard to say what the bit itself looks like, since we can only see the external parts.

To address the second part of your question as to whether anyone uses a war bit as part of their harness, I can only speak for us and no, we do not use a high port bit on Bella, she is ridden with a french snaffle. In our case, Jeff certainly wouldn't use a high port medieval bits on Bella it unless he knew how to use it, and the situation warranted it. Since it is unlikely that any of us are going to recreate a true combat situation complete with fear crazed and/or wounded horses, these bits are unneccessary in any forseeable reenactment setting that we'll be participating in.

To address the question ""just how accurate do we want to get?" I will say that Jeff is fascinated by how these bits fit in as part of the whole combat tack, so it is entirely likely that he will reconstruct one. He might even ride Bella with it a few times, to see how it works as part of the whole. However, I can say with assurance that for us, any bit like that would be taken to reenactments as part of the "preparing for war" equipment, but it is unlikely that Bella would actually be ridden in anything but her snaffle bit.

I think a bit like this falls into the category of other reenactment equipment that has the potential to cause great harm, like swords, cannon and crossbow. Reenactors bring them out because they are part of the world we are recreating, not because we intend to lop off limbs or blow off heads. It is appropriate and necessary to have a bit like this with the other war tack taken on campaign in order to recreate a situation, but it is not necessary that it be used.

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I have been told by horse breeders that most working stallions are not studs. Once they are used for breeding they are retired and used expressly for that purpose, as hormones take over and they tend to become more aggressive and single minded. I imagine as with most things this is not an all or nothing rule and that some breeding stallions have a temperment that allows them to breed while they are still working. Hopwever, as I understand it being "put out to stud" means they are used for that purpose alone.

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Very true in the racing world, less so in many other equestrian endeavors depending on your discipline. Dressage stallions often go home for breeding season, etc and come right back for training and competition. The same is true with many jumpers, Quarter and Paint stallions. The Lippizzans stallions are sent home to Piber for breeding and brought back to Vienna for performance and perform both functions equally.

Now, someone who is handling and riding a stallion who is at home in the performance area and the breeding shed needs to be aware of it, but once a stallion begins his breeding career his performance career is not necessarily over.

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The answer to the necessity of these bits for controling a crazed stallion in the heat of battle seems to be "yes, likely", since these bits are often associated with the other pieces of war tack. However, bits with long bars may be a fashion or part of a 15th C. rididng style. I'm looking through the Tres Riches Heurs right here, and many of these pleasure horses are being ridden in bits with long bars; even the plow horse has a bit with long bars. There also seems to be as many "ring" bits without long bars. In any case, it's hard to say what the bit itself looks like, since we can only see the external parts.

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This could be a solution for someone wanting to portray accuracy but not wanting to overdo things with their horse. Shank bits are leverage bits but a large part of their effectiveness actually has to do with what type of port they have. A mullen mouth shank bit is going to be easier on your horse than a spade with a cathredral port. A humane re-enactor searching for a correct look could recreate the shanks and not the port of a period bit. That would help satisfy both ends of the arguement. To me, when we include our animal companions accuracy must be tempered with humanity.

Just my two cents,
Brenna

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A humane re-enactor searching for a correct look could recreate the shanks and not the port of a period bit.

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Mike Negy, who is teaching me bronze & brass casting, has been attempting to do this with a Mamuluk Turk persona. (He's the one who built the 17th C. saddle, not a 15th as I believe I previously referred to it as). Our problem with brass is the dadburn thing winds up being so heavy when you cast them with all the decoration the original had. It seems unlikely (to me) that a bit would be that heavy, although I've never handled an original one.
For the same reason Genvera mentions, (not knowing how to use one) I believe I'll use what is comfortable for the horse for riding. It would be nice to have a war bit for display, as the average person would understand the humanitarian reasons for not inflicting it on our mounts, the same as firing stones instead of flour or wadding from a cannon at an event.

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I have actually found a manufacturer that makes bits appropriate for 17th century Spanish and Haute Ecole type impressions. I would have to pull out my manuals for further back, but they do work for 17th century.

They are gorgeous and can be ordered with a custom port. A little pricey though

Frontier Equestrian carries them, I think the company is based in California. These are from their catalog. My understanding is that they work with local artisans, that might be a possibility for a re-enactor as well.

[img]http://frontierequestrian.com/catimg/ACF2FE7.jpg [/img]
[img]http://frontierequestrian.com/catimg/ACF2FF0.jpg [/img]
[img] http://frontierequestrian.com/catimg/ACF2FF6.jpg[/img]

This one is shown with a very period type of cathedral spade mouthpiece.
[img] http://frontierequestrian.com/catimg/bd1563dl.jpg[/img]

[img]http://frontierequestrian.com/catimg/silbit5l.jpg [/img]

Thought this might give some good ideas even though they are a little bit later for most impressions on this list.
Brenna

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The fourth bit on the page is the one with the cathedral spade port.

Brenna

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while pottering about on the internet, I found this Spanish site http://www.frenerialopez.com/fren_ing.htm
They also will make custom bits, and for the bit I asked for (with an order size of 6 to 12 pieces) the price was $27US.
From the literature they sent me, for a plain bit, if you can design it, they will make it, and at a very reasonable price.

I hope this is of some use...!

I am in the process of contacting a French saddle maker. He does custom work, so I am going to see if he would be willing to make a general purpose "medieval" riding saddle. On top of that I was going to ask him if he would make or knew some one who made custom bits, but you have answered my question.

Thanks again.

Jenn

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I like the stirrups, I wonder what those cost?

Brenna

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I am in the process of contacting a French saddle maker. He does custom work, so I am going to see if he would be willing to make a general purpose "medieval" riding saddle.

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Speaking from sad personal experience, when dealing with French tack makers, it might be a very good idea for you to get some references and put your hands on their actual work before purchasing.

Brenna

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Hi Brenna, I wouldn't get concerned just yet, we are in the initial contact phase. Once contact has been established, we can cobble out the "terms". I am working with 2 pro-riders, both speak french, one is a native speaker who has volunteered their time to act as POC when working out the details. She also vacas in the South of France and has ridden in this saddle type many times.

Believe me, we aren't going to "drop" that kind of money on something without some kind of "try before you buy" arrangement. I note that folks have purchased Sela Portugesas and have had to live with the saddle even from a US distributor. It's no fun to buy something you can't return because it is considered "custom". $1500.00 is a lot and then you have to pay a local saddlemaker to "fix" it.

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I got a saddle from L'Arconniere (spelling?)My go between was one of my French clients who lived outside of Paris. (She breeds the most beautiful Selle Francais, sigh) It was ok quality work but the leather didn't hold up, the stitching came apart, etc in under 6 months of riding. I think that overall that many french made items of tack are made for leather of poorer quality to begin with. I'm not certain if that has to do with suppliers, etc or what. The only leather item from France I have ever been happy with was the French calf leather used in my Vogel Customs.

Just sharing a personal experience.

Brenna

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I received my order from Spain not 15 minutes ago.

The "High school" bits seem to be of quite good quality, although the welding on the rings is very visible (spoilt by English manufacturers you see), but other than that they are fine. The mouth is not too harsh, although the shanks seem very long to an English classical rider like me. (We actually went for the longer shanks though it has to be said)

The Portuguese bit was very nice except that the finish where the shanks were fitted is a little rough. I certainly wouldn't put it in a horses mouth until I had carefully finished it off - but for the price, can't argue.

The stirrups are way good. I am now officially a very happy bunny, and only 2,050 of their Spanish pesetas. Certainly recommend them to all and sundry..!

And just over a week to come through too.

Thanks for the report!

Brenna

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