I posted the links in an effort to be helpful. so I'm sure I don't understand the comment or its connection to:

"It's NOT the saddle that makes the horseman. It is the TIME IN THE SADDLE. You are deluding only yourself.

I don't quite understand the connection to the previous comments. However, while I do not pretend to be an expert on saddles, I live in town where better than 60% of the residents own horses and engage in various equestrian activities. I therefore have a daily opportunity to observe many riders practicing their respective sports.

I have observed that the dressage riders use dressage saddles, the rodeo guys use western saddles, the sport riders use various endurance saddles, and I see a number of other saddles for sale at the feed stores that appear to serve some other sports that I don't know.

Because there are so many saddles being utilized, I have therefore deduced that different saddles are made for specific purposes, as I NEVER see dressage riders using western saddles or cowboys using dressage saddles.

If "It's NOT the saddle that makes the horseman. It is the TIME IN THE SADDLE.” than I wonder why I see such a price range on saddles? We looked at a dressage saddle last week at Petsmart that was $299, yet one of my clients who trains for the Olympics recently spent $3,500 on a custom built saddle. If all saddles are the same, it would seem my client threw her money away quite foolishly! Or perhaps a saddle *does* affect one’s performance?

All the riders, regardless of discipline, spend a lot of time in their respective saddles, perfecting their sport with equipment designed specifically for that sport. I can only deduce that the same lines of reasoning would apply to other applications, such as medieval pursuits i.e. sport-specific equipment would be necessary, along with an appropriate amount of practice. It's a leap of faith, but I can't imagine football players using baseball gloves to practice football, or ice hockey players dribbling a basketball, so why would a western saddle be appropriate for jousting?

If I am "deluding myself" in either my understanding of the equipment required or the time required to become competant at an equestrian sport, I look forward to being educated by those more knowledgeable than myself.

The statement

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"It's NOT the saddle that makes the horseman. It is the TIME IN THE SADDLE. You are deluding only yourself.

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All that being said, there is also truth in the idea that certain equipment is better than others. You can team pen in a dressage saddle (been there, done that) but not as easily as in a saddle suited to the work, and don't even think about roping a calf because you've got nothing to dally off.

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If "It's NOT the saddle that makes the horseman. It is the TIME IN THE SADDLE.” than I wonder why I see such a price range on saddles? We looked at a dressage saddle last week at Petsmart that was $299, yet one of my clients who trains for the Olympics recently spent $3,500 on a custom built saddle. If all saddles are the same, it would seem my client threw her money away quite foolishly! Or perhaps a saddle *does* affect one’s performance?

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Well, let's use some common sense on that one. We all know you see a price difference in saddles (and cars and watches and beds and just about anything else you can purchase or make in the world) because of the quality/construction, etc. Chances are, you will get a better ride/fit for your horse, etc out of a better made saddle. Quality = Cost in most things, saddles are definitely like that.

An ill piece of equipment can affect performance. HOWEVER if someone doesn't spend the time learning to be a horseman, an expensive saddle isn't going to make them one. You can have all the money in the world, the best horse/equipment money can buy, and if you don't spend the time using it, it doesn't make you a horseman.

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If "It's NOT the saddle that makes the horseman. It is the TIME IN THE SADDLE.”

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than I wonder why I see such a price range on saddles?

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Again, this is colored by my personal experience and by the huge amount of time I have spent over the years riding in a variety of discplines, using many kinds of saddles and running professional barns. The opinions of others may vary.

Brenna, who hopes she answered some of Ginevra's questions.

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Common sense would dictate though that you would use the correct saddle for the job/sport you are performing. Why would you willingly decide to use one that wasn't designed specifically for the task, i.e. team calf penning in a dressage saddle or tilting in a dressage saddle or western saddle?

Lack of availability is a given hence the forward momentum in the LH and Re-enactment communities to study and construct from extant examples, historical reproduction saddles. Admittedly we do settle for the medievalesque, but I believe that is covered by "availabilty".

You might be able to take the impact and deliver a lance strike home in these types of saddles, but would it not be more easily achieved if one performed the task in a saddle that was designed for it (geographical styles not withstanding)?

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Why would you willingly decide to use one that wasn't designed specifically for the task, i.e. team calf penning in a dressage saddle or tilting in a dressage saddle or western saddle?

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However, I really wouldn't recommend even quintain jousting to someone who doesn't have the kind of firm seat and strong back I got from dressage and I sure wouldn't encourage them to try it in my saddle. I also don't see my self breaking lances with someone without a more supportive cantle. I'm not really sure I would need it but I don't see the point in taking the chance when there is equipment that can provide a better edge.

Now, I do quintain in a saddle with even less of a deep seat than my dressage saddle. Guess I just have to push the envelope a little. I also don't have the $1300 to start I was quoted for a medieval saddle reconstruction and I sure don't have the skills to make my own.

Brenna

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I suspected that it might be something like that.

~J

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We do most of our training with either GP or the old military universal pattern saddles, and routinely practice runs against quintain and rings and tentpegging. Doing it without stirrups doesn't make the exercise much harder, unless you're in heavy armour.

Only time I've seen someone have a problem keeping their seat was when a novice stuck his lance tip into the ground, rather than the tent peg he was aiming at.

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Hi Brenna,
I suspected that it might be something like that.

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Didja now?

I'm sure I could do it bareback too, haven't tried it though, Cisco has a REALLY prominent spine, if you know what I mean. I think anyone with a good seat could do it bareback, I just don't really think a beginner might want to try it in a saddle or with out a saddle, if they don't feel secure. Well der, I guess you should say that about any equistrian endeavor, LOL.

Check out this link, it is an illustration of bareback jousting. Seems to me maybe we should just toss the saddles for practice, LOL. Before somebody starts flaming, I'm JUST KIDDING! http://ilaria.veltri.tripod.com/bareback.html

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We do most of our training with either GP or the old military universal pattern saddles, and routinely practice runs against quintain and rings and tentpegging. Doing it without stirrups doesn't make the exercise much harder, unless you're in heavy armour.

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My current saddle is a Canadian Cavalry Saddle and I agree wholeheartedly. Stirrups help when you overbalance, etc but DEPENDING on them without developing a seat is a very BAD thing.

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Only time I've seen someone have a problem keeping their seat was when a novice stuck his lance tip into the ground, rather than the tent peg he was aiming at.

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LOL, yep, I've seen that one happen. I also once saw pole vaulting when a guy dropped his lance without letting go. Oh, not good to watch a guy in armor flying through the air...

Brenna

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(LOL) Oh I *see*!! (LOL) I thought this forum was for discussion of how jousting was done in the 14th & 15th C. but I see I must have been mistaken! (LOL) Silly, grumpy me!

For my part, I think the predominence of pictorial evidence points clearly to a variety of styles of saddles, even in limited geography and time. Look at those wonderful 15th century woodcuts...pilgrams, knights, merchants and princes are shown riding horses and there's a LOT of variation on the types of saddles.

To that end, it makes perfect sense to my documentation hungry brain that the reason for this differentiation is not just a metter of personal taste, but perhaps a matter of utility.

just my observations, in an attempt to bring the conversation around to the re-enactment of 14th and 15th century Europe....

--AM

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Looks a lot like a 13th C. saddle, doesn't it? The Kentucky Horse Park has some interesting examples, as well. I need to take some pictures when we return. They have the original of a pair of stirrups I bought from a California Andulusian/Spanish tack supplier. I thought they looked "medieval", but they were 17th C. French.
So, Gwen, do you think there NEVER was some young squire who turned and bragged to his buddy "I'll bet I can unseat your ass without a saddle!" Watch a rodeo, and while you're thinking "Why would anyone want to do that?" remember youth and testosterone. If I can run the quintain without a saddle, I'd be that much better with one.

[ 07-06-2001: Message edited by: Seigneur de Leon ]

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I have no doubt that pissing contests occured in the 15th C. just like they happen now. I'm just commenting on the propriety of one happening here, in this forum.

As a matter of fact, I'd love to read a story about a 15th C. pissing contest where one squire turns to his lord's opponent's squire and says something like "Thou had a good turne thou warte not here this while to see your master sossing and possing in the durte, unhorsed, brusten and sadde...... Verily, hyt would have made thee beshite thee for laughter!"

I'm always up for a good story.

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"an illustration of bareback jousting"

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Check the link, the picture of the bareback jousting came from a medieval source. Though in all fairness, it probably did grow out of a 15th century pissing contest.

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(LOL) Oh I *see*!! (LOL) I thought this forum was for discussion of how jousting was done in the 14th & 15th C. but I see I must have been mistaken! (LOL) Silly, grumpy me!

Gwen

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Hey now, you started this particular thread talking about the costs etc of modern saddles and equipment.

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An early 20th century Kazakstani saddle

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Yep, you're right, Eleanor's saddle looks quite a bit like that. Makes you wonder if the style remained the same from the middle ages or developed independently as it does bear some solid resemblance to some medieval saddles in art. Good research project...

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. I thought they looked "medieval", but they were 17th C. French.

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Actually, 17th century French works for me as I do 17th century English Royalist. Do you have a picture of them somewhere? I would really like to see them.

Brenna

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Even though it was a joke and being that no saddles are involved -- thus a "smidge" off topic, I thought I would toss my hat into the ring and that if the bareback topic continues that a new thread be started keeping in mind historical contexts and how it is appropriate for LH and Reenactment.

The "bareback" jousting idea seems to be a purely German pursuit. I have not seen another visual reference in tourney images for other European geographic locations. That is not to say that it didn't happen, I just haven't come across anything. Has anyone else?

The German jousting manuscripts are some of the most vividly detailed, at least visually, on the subject that survive. One might speculate, being that there is no description of the image in Barber/Baker's book of the Tournament, that it might be one of the 12 variations shown in a procession of knights in Burgkmair's book (emperor Maximillian I's reign). Being that the knights are riding bareback, it suggests to me that it might be some type of strength contest. Hitting a quintain bareback is one thing, going against another rider with a lance is something else.

From an LH/RE standpoint, I think it would be interesting, though probably somewhat nerve wracking for the insurance companies, if someone were holding a tournament in a 16th c. German venue and had this as part of the events. Though I think for safety's sake this falls under the category of "Don't try this at home."

Cheers,

Jenn

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