I was curious about the way you have found your saddle to fit on your horse.

How much clearance did you live for the gullet at the pommel and cantle?

How closely do the pommel "wings" fit down the withers? Also, does the saddle fit over the shoulder blades or does it sit behind it?

Do you find that your horse's movement has changed when you use this saddle as opposed to a more modern type?

I'm also curious aboutt the back fitting. When you take it off, where are the wet/dry spots?

I'm very interested in hearing your reply so I can understand what specs you used in the construction.

Looking forward to hearing about your project.

Brenna

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The interest is entirely self-serving... My own horse has massive scapulae, though she is decidedly slab-sided, and finding a saddle (as well as a comfortable position for that saddle) that didn't pinch her shoulders was a hassle. I wondered how you did it, because fitting for destriers must be so much more difficult.

Brenna

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I don't believe Jeff has much time to contribute anymore, so your best bet would be to see good photos of the saddle at http://www.historicenterprises.com/redco/index.html. The photos should answer most of your questions.

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Well darn it, they don't really answer anything at all. The pad covers the withers and shoulderblades completely and there are no close up shots of gullet clearance or of a sweaty back right after the saddle was removed.

Guess I'll just have to remain in suspense.

Brenna

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"there are no close up shots of gullet clearance"

There is enough gullet clearance. The extant saddles I worked from have only the necessary clearance and no more.

..."or of a sweaty back right after the saddle was removed"

The saddle was made to Bella's back. She sweats evenly across all contact area.

I made a dupe of her back (using profiles every 2" along her back), which I used in the shop for preliminary tree fit. As I was building the tree, I took it out and plopped it on her back to check it. It fit perfectly without a pad, so I had to open it up slightly to allow for the pad.

It fits her as well as any saddle ever will and she moves better in it than in any of the modern saddles I've put on her.

I hope that relieves your suspense.

What is the gullet clearance? From the unmounted pictures it looks like none in front to about an inch or two under the whole cantle. Is that a build up under the cantle or does the cantle portion naturally sit off the pad? How much does that change when you mount?

I also noticed that the pad seems to have slid back a little and that is in those pictures Bella looks like she's been worked. Do you find that your pad works back while riding? That's normal with many pads (one reason dressage riders often have billet loops) but I was wondering if you find that occurs with this saddle as well.

I'm also curious about the rigging style. Unfortunately it's shadowed in the pictures and hard to tell but it looks like you used a 3/4 or 7/8 type rather than a center fire type.

How did you mount your stirrup leathers? Are they run up over the tree and through the gullet or did you attach them directly to the tree? Oh, and where did you get those really nice stirrups? I have been trying to find a source for them but all I have seen so far are the triangular brass ones at around $150.00 a pair.

Is the leather seat "slung" over the tree or is it mounted directly onto the tree? Oh, and what did you make and stuff your pad with?

See, answer a few questions and get more. Isn't that a pain?

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If you're planning to do a saddle reconstruction of your own, I really encourage you to do your own research. It does neither of us any good for me to spoon feed you my interpretation of the available reference material.

There's no sense in using what I did, since you'd only be doing your interpretation of my interpretation, while compounding my mistakes. It's much better to go back to the extant examples and references yourself and make your own choices. You'll learn more anyway.

As far as my choices, I used four extant saddles, and paintings to determine the style and fit characteristics of my saddle. I've tried to make it work as near as I can to how I believe a field saddle of 1471 might. I'm not perfect, I've undoubtedly made some mistakes, so for your sake I think it's best that you make your own choices. You'll find all your answers if you analyze the available artifacts and reference material, in fact you'll learn much more than I can ever relate in this forum.

Since there is only one extant saddle from anywhere near the 1470's, I looked also at slightly later saddles such as those on the Waldemar VI of Anhalt-Zerbst armour in the Royal Armouries, Leeds, the saddle of the A21 Armour in the Wallace collection and a saddle in Madrid, supposedly belonging to Philip the Fair. These saddles were used for tree configuration and steels attachment info primarily. The 1470's saddle is in Vienna and currently displayed as part of the Koenigsgarnitur of Frederich III.

The first two saddles can be seen on pp 126, 127 of Edge and Paddock. The third is seen in a tourist guide to the Real Ameria in Madrid, but is not well documented there. The Vienna saddle is only published in one book, from one angle, so I had to write to the staff of the Museum for photos.

I can't stress enough the importance of doing your own research. Remember the addage, "You can give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, if you teach him to fish, he'll eat for the rest of his life."

(BTW, I made the whole thing from scratch, including the stirrups)

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If you're planning to do a saddle reconstruction of your own, I really encourage you to do your own research. It does neither of us any good for me to spoon feed you my interpretation of the available reference material.

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I'm not trying to "steal" your research and I am NOT planning on doing my own reconstruction. (I hate power tools, wood working or bending steel, if I wanted a saddle like yours I would throw money at a professional until I had what I wanted)

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I'm curious why you need all this information.

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Why am I asking this questions? For various reasons:

• I have made a living in an area of the horse industry where a properly (or improperly) fitted saddle can make or break a performance. It has become a personal quest of mine to understand how that can influence an equestrian in any area of equestrian endeavor

• I have studied with a modern saddle fitter who specializes in custom fit saddles and I was wondering if his modern interpretations of fit were similar to the ones you used when constructing your saddle

Using those criteria, I will further explain my questions and why I asked them. How you choose (or don't choose) to answer is of course up to you.

I asked about gullet clearance, you said:

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There is enough gullet clearance. The extant saddles I worked from have only the necessary clearance and no more.

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I'm interested in what you interpret as sufficient so I can cross reference to a modern interpretation. That's why I also asked whether the clearance changed when you mounted.

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The saddle was made to Bella's back. She sweats evenly across all contact area.

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Contact area? Saddle pressure point contact area or the entire saddle pad?

Those two questions were also asked so I can come to a better understanding of the type of heat buildup and back muscle usage of a horse that would have been used in the conditions you made your saddle for. Again, remember, I am approaching this from the standpoint of a modern equine professional wondering what challenges were faced by the animals I make my living with over 500 years ago.

Since you are one of the only people I have ever found who has made one of these saddles, it occurred to me that you might be of tremendous assistance to me. "Extant" examples in museums don't tell me squat about how a saddle works on a horse's back when they are actually being ridden in it. Why do you think I asked:

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I also noticed that the pad seems to have slid back a little and that is in those pictures Bella looks like she's been worked. Do you find that your pad works back while riding? That's normal with many pads (one reason dressage riders often have billet loops) but I was wondering if you find that occurs with this saddle as well.

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The same question was about rigging because I have noticed different rigging positions on extant samples and I wondered what type you used and how it worked for you.

I'm very sorry to have inconvenienced you and I will look for others who have similar experience instead.
Brenna

[ 09-21-2001: Message edited by: Brenna ]

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If fail to see why you want to storm off in a huff. Jeff posted pictures of the saddle from all angles AND answered your questions thoroughly AND gave you a complete list of his research sources. He also gave you his OPINION that if you wanted to make a saddle you should do your own research AND explained why he held that opinion.

If he had any reservations about you "stealing his research" I sincerely doubt whether he would have done such a comprehensive job of answering your questions.

Responses like this are why neither of us post much on this board any more. We're damned if we do post and damned if we don't. Posting is an object lesson in futility.

Geez.

Gwen

I was asked why I was asking questions and told I would learn more by doing my own research.

I explained why I asked the questions and apologized for inconveniencing Jeffrey. Is that storming off in a huff? We certainly must interpret things differently.

Brenna

[ 09-21-2001: Message edited by: Brenna ]

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I have had enough of this behaviour, and it will stop immediately. If it does not, deletions of posts and potentially restrictions as to who can post will begin.

Brenna, you asked a question and got a civil and informative, helpful answer from a person who I would deem you have treated shabbily in the recent past on this board. I would ask you to cease and desist instantly, or I will take administrative action. Any commentary from you or anybody else regarding this decision is unwelcome, and will count as an additional administrative warning to you.

PAX

Jenn

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