theres' an event in the works here in the Pacific NW. Some folks in the SCA want to do an Empris, a VERY floofy medieval horse tournament thingie. Much tilting at quintains and rings, running about, flapping caraparisons, etc.

The site is a commercial horse ranch, running over 100 head of rental horses of every size and disposition, many of which have done the games (SCA as well as gymkana, etc) before and like 'em. They have a large covered arena, as well as access to a huge bunch of mountainous public land for trail rides.

What would it take to get non-SCA folks to come play? Clear deliniation of sumptuary (ie the "spurs" thing)? what?

I'm thinking this sounds like a wonderful way to get the SCA to meet non SCA folks and vice versa, as well as an outstanding venue to encrouage horsie stuff.

2. Is it an SCA event? If it is, I think the rules for the Empris need to be shown way ahead of time. Just from some of the discussions I have had with people on and off line, most non-SCA (and many SCA) equestrian folks don't like attempting to disguise a modern riding helmet as something it isn't. They don't like beheading the "saracen" at a walk, etc...

Check out the ARMET discussion regarding horse rules. Friedrich posted the East Coast SCA equine guidelines, at least some of them any way. It is the second message. He also included other info, but the SCA guidelines are toward the middle.

http://www.wolfeargent.com/ubb/Forum14/HTML/000005.html

It might give you an idea of the concerns and how they might be addressed to bring folks together.

Good Luck.

~J

Simple. Allow me to ride in all the equipment appropriate to the persona I portray - harness, helmet, ect. Temporarly rescind made up SCA 'sumptuary law' where it affects the historical accuracy of participants from other groups kit. If I thwak a 'Scarecens head', allow me to do so with my normal re-enactment blade and do not force me to use a blade of grass on steroids (note - I do expect that if any contact were to occur between people, then the SCA martial rules would have to prevail - but as the SCA does not allow this with equestrian activity, it is a moot point).

If this were allowed, I would seriously consider participating.

When members of the SCA participate with other groups (like Adria, ECS, etc.), the visitors are accorded the rank they hold in their own group.

Conversly, when a member of another group visits the SCA, they are NOT accorded the rank they hold in their own group.

To me, this would be like the British Prime Minister visiting the US and being told he's just another Brit tourist.....

I know that Jeff and I might be willing to attend some SCA events here if we knew we wouldn't be hassled. However, since the "spur incedent", we avoid the SCA like the plague. I certainly don't want some SCA Viking goon (who just happens to be the current king) carrying out his threat of "knocking Jeff down and forcibly removing his spurs if he caught him wearing them again." Likewise, I don't want to have to wear something dreadful just to avoid the rumour that I'm "trying to sleep my way to a Laurel" because I have nice clothes.

But that's just my 2d, after all!

Gwen

Like Chef said, allow everyone to wear as period clothing as they can produce, by which I mean don't outlaw something authentic or enforce something inauthentic. Some other considerations:

Are there stables/pasture for those who bring their own horses to stay overnight?

Let riders (at least non-SCA) participate at their actual level of ability (determined in a short 'test') rather than any pre-standing rank/experience/qualification based on SCA standards.

Granted, if this is an SCA event then I guess the SCA has every right to enforce whatever rules and regs it wants, but if it intends to target non-SCA equestran folk, some leeway will have to be allowed. I'm not saying that if a couple of pro jousters show up they should be allowed to do lance passes, but allowing real weapons in the games, real clothing/armour on the people (and horses, if anyone is so fortunate), etc isn't asking too much.

First of all, if it's an SCA equestrian event, anyone who wants to participate as a rider will have to participate under the rules of that kingdom. The requirements vary somewhat depending on the kingdom you reside in but usually include that you are a rider authorized to ride under SCA corporate (and kingdom) standards and that you are a paid member of the SCA. This has to do primarily with insurance liability. The SCA Corporate regulations are available for download (it's a PDF file) at: http://members.nbci.com/create_art/testsite/index.htm You will have to follow a link to the download, but it will give you a basis to work from.

Anne Marie, as I recall, you live in Seattle don't you? If so, that means you live in An Tir. The KEO of An Tir is Lord Fionn Bán MacAoidh aka David M. Stredwick
1204 N. Pacific Ave.
Kelso, WA 98626-3713
(360) 425-7425 (before 11 p.m. PST)
fionnban@netzero.net

He should be able to fill you in on the requirements for the kingdom equestrian participation and/or referr you to the Equestrian Marshal in Charge for the event.

It's an Emprise, basically a type of Pas d'Armes tourney. SCA tradition states that there are specific requirements for participating in an Emprise. These are published prior to the event by the person/persons in charge of organizing it. They range from letters of intent, heraldic display, helm/crest requirements, number of foot attendants, types of tack allowed, garb requirements for horses, riders and foot attendants, etc.

I just participated in a wonderful one held at the event Gulf Wars in March. If you would like a copy of the requirements for the Emprise de la Trois Roses, let me know and I will email them to you.

Few people in the SCA say anything about spurs if you are actually riding. And also SCA Corpora only reserves gold spurs for knights. However, some kingdoms have put further restrictions and some people are way too worried about what other people might "think" about the "position" of someone wearing spurs.

Most Emprise's require that if a modern riding helmet is worn, it must be disguised in such a way that it looks like a helm.

Nope, you can't use a re-enactment blade Bob. Why the reason for that has to do with the very strict SCA Equestrian Insurance. This has nothing to with anything except the insurance company which says these are activities you may engage in, these are activities you may not engage in.

Just as a side note however, Emprise competitions usually consist of Quintain, Ring Tilting and Spear Throwing.

Also, if you give SCA Equestrians a chance, you will probably find out that they bear very little resemblance to many others in the SCA. They tend to be the most open hearted, open minded and improvement desiring group of the lot.

Real swords- even rebated and/or blunted swords - will never happen at an SCA event.

Ban the annoying "Oyez, oyez" thing-- oh, and duhmbeks.

Questions- would nice 15th C. Continentals be cutting the heads off "Saracens?" Is this a real thing or a made up thing?

Glen, if a couple of pro jousters want to do lance passes why not let them??? They are pros, after all.

If you have an SCA event under SCA rules, it would not be possible to have the SCA folk get the benefit of exposure to non-SCA activities, since those activities would not be allowed by SCA rules.

No mounted combat, even with rattan sticks, no lance passes, even with Qtip SCA spears, no melon slicing with real swords.

You ditch the "real" activities that most reenactors or "jousters" do, and you not only take away the stuff that makes it fun for them to be there, but you prevent the SCA folk from being exposed to the things that they really want to see from their "visitors".

I plan to attend an SCA Eq. event in 3 weeks, but certainly don't expect to do ANY of my reenactment stuff there. I know their rules and am only going because it gives me something else to do with my horse.

No SCA sanctioned event will ever be something where full benefit of SCA and reenactor/jouster cooperation will occur. It's just the limitations of the SCA's combat and equestrian rules.

Boy am I a stick-in-the-mud.

Perhaps you could look at doing a NON-SCA event, just invite everybody. You can get your own insurance, you know.

------------------
Cheers,

I think it would be great to do so; my caveat was in the spirit of compromise... every "SCA equetrian official" I've spoken with has been so afraid of the J-word occurring at an SCA event that the very mention of it makes them shudder. At a non-SCA event, I'd say that as long as both riders agree on the conditions (assuming, of course they ARE pros or at least have a lot of armour/weapon equestrian experience) it would be a great thing to do and see. I'd LOVE to tilt with somebody outside my group, just for the variety. People who do that sort of thing a lot are usually competent enough to not hurt each other, and know enough not to go against a very inexperienced rider; not because the pro will hurt them, but because they will hurt the pro, themselves, both horses, etc.

If you have an "SCA" event, with "SCA" rules, I wouldn't want to bring my horse all that way. If I can't do what I want with my horse (within reason), as I do at reenactments, why should I go all that way?

If you have a non sca event and allow us reenactors to do all the things we're used to, I would certainly consider coming.

SCA traditions, spurs rules, etc are not so much of an issue for me anymore. The equestrian restrictions are, however.

------------------
Cheers,

quote:

---

Originally posted by hauptmann:

Perhaps you could look at doing a NON-SCA event, just invite everybody. You can get your own insurance, you know.

---

Absolutely. That was our choice when the Company of Saint Olaf wanted to raise the bar a bit - we are holding a non-SCA, but SCA-friendly, event. Thanks to Jeffrey, I was able to obtain insurance for exactly the same price that the SCA charges for dues, $35/year per person.

I'll try and get to them...

Chef asks:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fire Stryker:
[B]1. Find out what the Ranch rules are regarding safety equipment. Helmets and the like. What would they allow?

helmets are recommended, but not required. I wore my flemish do-rag and it was fine. Many folks wore nothing. I think ONE gal brought a helmet for her kid. No shoe restrictions, just recommendations. basically dress however you like.

2. Is it an SCA event? If it is, I think the rules for the Empris need to be shown way ahead of time. Just from some of the discussions I have had with people on and off line, most non-SCA (and many SCA) equestrian folks don't like attempting to disguise a modern riding helmet as something it isn't. They don't like beheading the "saracen" at a walk, etc...

I agree. That's why I'm asking if there's any interest in making this event "re-enactor friendly". Sure, its an SCA event, but the folks putting it on are friends of mine and think period stuff is the cats pajamas.

If the "event" I was at last weekend was any indication, it was folks running about as best they can. No live steel for wacking or such, but the spear thingies had real metal bits for stabbing things.

quite frankly, I think the "no live steel" is not a bad idea given that the event will be crawling with enthusiastic beginners on RENTAL HORSES. the potential for damage to others is too great.

HOWEVER, if some "professional jouster" wanted to come an do a demo, with their own horse, it could likely be arranged. (dunno...I'm just thinking outloud, so dont quote me ).

No, current SCA rules dont allow for jousting. Can you blame them? again, enthusiastic inexperienced riders on rental horses, doing something the horses arent really trained for, surrounded by enthusiastic city slickers who dont know how to act around horses, many of them carrying sharp pokey things.

Thats not to say that something couldnt be arranged if someone with qualifications showed up with their own horse and wanted to demo live steel combat on horseback, etc. of course....

quote:

---

Originally posted by chef de chambre:
Hi AM,

Simple. Allow me to ride in all the equipment appropriate to the persona I portray - harness, helmet, ect. Temporarly rescind made up SCA 'sumptuary law' where it affects the historical accuracy of participants from other groups kit. If I thwak a 'Scarecens head', allow me to do so with my normal re-enactment blade and do not force me to use a blade of grass on steroids (note - I do expect that if any contact were to occur between people, then the SCA martial rules would have to prevail - but as the SCA does not allow this with equestrian activity, it is a moot point).

If this were allowed, I would seriously consider participating.

---

there are no sumptuary laws in An Tir. Anyone can wear anything they like. There are sumptuary customs, however, but most of those involve non-medieval regalia anyway .

If this did happen, we'd have to make sure folks knew that there were non-SCA players on the field and not to assume anything. I'm mostly concerned about the spur thing since its basic horse gear!

though I wonder how it works with rental horses....if i had a horse to rent, I wouldnt want some guy I didnt know using spurs on my pony....

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ginevra:
Interesting question, and one I wouldn't even venture an opinion on. However, I do have an observation to make.

When members of the SCA participate with other groups (like Adria, ECS, etc.), the visitors are accorded the rank they hold in their own group.

Conversly, when a member of another group visits the SCA, they are NOT accorded the rank they hold in their own group.

To me, this would be like the British Prime Minister visiting the US and being told he's just another Brit tourist.....

I know that Jeff and I might be willing to attend some SCA events here if we knew we wouldn't be hassled. However, since the "spur incedent", we avoid the SCA like the plague. I certainly don't want some SCA Viking goon (who just happens to be the current king) carrying out his threat of "knocking Jeff down and forcibly removing his spurs if he caught him wearing them again." Likewise, I don't want to have to wear something dreadful just to avoid the rumour that I'm "trying to sleep my way to a Laurel" because I have nice clothes.

But that's just my 2d, after all!

Gwen

---

again, there's no sumptuary laws in AnTir.

when we've had visitors from other groups its been a bit of a sticky issue how to treat them (once it was the King of somewhere else). Problem is there's a JILLION Other groups round here, all of them LESS authentic than the SCA. Do you treat the "king" of the local D and D chapter like a king?

In my experience, rank does not translate across groups in either direction here, and I dont expect it to. (but then I'm notorious egalitarian...its my Brugges roots showing ).

how does this apply to a potential SCA event that non-SCA folks might want to come play at? dunno. It would be something to hash out ahead of time, that's for sure! I fully expect a rather large panel of sca "dignitaries" to come so its bound to come up.

I was being grumpy, my comments were unneccessary, off the topic and I apologize.

I wouldn't let any enthusiastic beginners near/on one of our horses with spurs! All I can see is the enthusiastic novice, the spurs, a large annoyed animal taking them on a joy ride, and the rest of us spending the afternoon combing the countryside for them.

Sounds like the event will be an interesting one. Unfortunately it is a tad out of our commuting range.

Ah well. Good luck.

Please don't "bust" on people's methods or the things they do until you understand the legal constraints placed on them by their insurance company. Believe me, with the way the insurance company first acted, the SCA is lucky to be allowed to have horses at events doing ANYTHING. That actually is slowly changing--the insurance requirements are being revamped and whole new world of activities is opening up for SCA Equestrians.

I would also like to note that many re-enactment groups have really good equestrian insurance for a variety of activities. ACW, ECW, etc have insurance companies that allow a lot. It's also more expensive. The SCA's insurance for equestrian stuff (which is enacted separately from the regular liability coverage for an event) costs $40.00 And if you send the company a list of each equestrian event you're holding in a 12 month period when you apply, you are covered for the whole time period for your $40.00
Now, I'm not currently up to speed on rates, but the last time I did ACW and we had cavalry at the Battle of Olustee, our equine liabilty insurance alone was over $600.00 for that one event.

Also, if re-enactors/LH groups do public demos (especially with horses) without specific equestrian liability insurance, they are opening themselves up to a world of trouble. If you leave in an equine zero liability state, it helps but only if negligence CANNOT be proven. It's easy to say "No-one in our group would be that way." Don't count on it, Americans are a sue happy lot. And heaven forbid a member of the public is injured--the horse owner is the one held liable, not the group.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to get on a soapbox but as an equine professional who is way too familiar with liability isses and an avid SCA Equestrian who has chafed under our legal limitations, I couldn't keep quiet.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ginevra:
AM, you should just ignore me. You know I've been seriously burned by the SCA, so I'm more gun shy than a half blind and deaf horse.

I was being grumpy, my comments were unneccessary, off the topic and I apologize.

Gwen

---

ah now, evil twin, calm your fevered brow!

your comments are always a good wake up call to me...yes, my experience in the SCA has been VERY different than yours (thank god!) but your observations are always a good glimpse of what COULD happen and so forwarned is forarmed, I think!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Glen K:
Not that I even have a chance of making it up there, but...

Like Chef said, allow everyone to wear as period clothing as they can produce, by which I mean don't outlaw something authentic or enforce something inauthentic.

there are no restricitons on clothing or horse tack that I know of. Again, helmets are "recommended" but not required. The only limits according to the current rules are on the use of real steel, and again, I understand that's more to keep OTHERS from getting hurt (ie all those enthusiastic inexperienced folks)

Are there stables/pasture for those who bring their own horses to stay overnight?

yep. that's one of the beauties of this site...its a HUGE horse ranch with paddocks and such. I assume all transport/health requirements will apply. There are also hotels very close by.

Let riders (at least non-SCA) participate at their actual level of ability (determined in a short 'test') rather than any pre-standing rank/experience/qualification based on SCA standards.

again, I didnt have to be tested. I was basically pointed at the games and told to go for it . For a competition I assume it would be similar. Riders never ride AGAIST each other that I can see, so my lack of skill has no effect on your run .

Granted, if this is an SCA event then I guess the SCA has every right to enforce whatever rules and regs it wants, but if it intends to target non-SCA equestran folk, some leeway will have to be allowed. I'm not saying that if a couple of pro jousters show up they should be allowed to do lance passes, but allowing real weapons in the games, real clothing/armour on the people (and horses, if anyone is so fortunate), etc isn't asking too much.

there has been no effort (yet) to encourage nonSCA folks...remember there IS no other game up here! but the folks running the show are friends of mine, and if some of my wierdo re-enactor friends wanna come play, we may be able to make it happen.

which is why I was asking "what would it take"?

so far, period clothing including headgear (no problem), you want to use real swords rather than sticks (dunno if we can swing that one, but I can ask), spurs (that only makes sense and I'm asking about it), place to overnight the horses (no problem) and people not being rude to you becuase you're not in the SCA (no promises...there's goobers everywhere, but I can assure you of basic good breeding in all MY friends!)

I won't even go into "why Glen hates riding helmets" diatribe.

---

me too. If they had insisted on me wearing a helmet, I may not have gone last weekend. Fortunately it was not a problem!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenna:

First of all, if it's an SCA equestrian event, anyone who wants to participate as a rider will have to participate under the rules of that kingdom.

---

as far as I know, there are no membership requirements. They may be enforced in some places, but we up here are rabidly independant . If you're not a dues paying member of the SCA, you need to sign a piece of paper that says if you get hurt it was probably your own fault and you knew it. (also worthless in washington state, but it makes the California office happy).

quote:

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Anne Marie, as I recall, you live in Seattle don't you? If so, that means you live in An Tir.

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yep, I'm in Seattle. Fionn is the ACTING kingdom guy. My contacts for this event are my friends who are autocratting. They were at the Emprise Gulf Wars and really want to do something similar.

quote:

---

Few people in the SCA say anything about spurs if you are actually riding.

---

thats what I thought...horsie people tend to wear spurs around here, regardless of SCA rank. It just makes sense....

quote:

---

And also SCA Corpora only reserves gold spurs for knights. However, some kingdoms have put further restrictions and some people are way too worried about what other people might "think" about the "position" of someone wearing spurs.

---

I am unware of any codified rules in Corpora regarding sumptuary. Can you tell me the passage? (again, AnTir is rabidly unconformist, and so this suprises me....)

quote:

---

Just as a side note however, Emprise competitions usually consist of Quintain, Ring Tilting and Spear Throwing.

---

I'm sure I'll have more info as it becomes available. Again, I'm just wondering if any of my non-SCA friends would be interseted in playing? it sounds like the answer is yes, as long as they can do what they want

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ginevra:
Allow participants to wear *real* helmets if there is a helmet requirement

---

sounds like this isnt an issue...helmets of any kind are not required, just "recommended".

.
Real swords- even rebated and/or blunted swords - will [b]never happen at an SCA event.[/B][/QUOTE]
this may be true, but the spear thingies have real sharp points. Since the events planned dont appear to include anything that involves combat, this isnt really an issue. The "saracen heads" game, however, did use a rattan thingie. I'm wondering if just a plain wood practice sword (we do have documentation for these) would satisfy everyone?

.
Ban the annoying "Oyez, oyez" thing-- oh, and duhmbeks.[/QUOTE]
I only hear "oyez oyez" from nonlocals . and I dont anticipate a lot of doumbeks out in a horsepasture . (its interesting to note, however, that many of our "belly dancer" types are actually really middle eastern dancers...not the grateful dead school, either!

.
Questions- would nice 15th C. Continentals be cutting the heads off "Saracens?" Is this a real thing or a made up thing?[/QUOTE]

they would if there was a nice prize to be had at the tournament

.
Glen, if a couple of pro jousters want to do lance passes why not let them??? They are pros, after all.[/QUOTE]

I think it would be AWESOME to have some folks demonstrate (on their own horses, who of course will be trained, with proper equipment, etc) this!

--AM

Talk about a small world is they are, LOL. I'm pretty sure that was the AnTir contingent at Gulf Wars.

Let me look up the Corpora info and I'll get you the link. Yeah I know AnTirians are indepenent--Donna was wearing gold spurs at GW, LOL.

(Some of) the Medieval Horse Guild membership are involved with SCA and outside events. Particularly since they hold both types of events at the Page's Farm in MD. Contacting them might be helpful in finding out what they've learned and decided on for rules in advance.
http://blackbox.psyberia.com/~HorseGuild/Default.htm