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Author
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Topic: Antoines colours
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Fire Stryker
Admin & Advocatus Diaboli
Member # 2
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posted 03-23-2006 03:30 PM
    
Freezy water is not a reliable source for that information. The livery colors for Monthlherey (1465?), I believe are listed in the Memoires of Jehan de Haynin and also pictured (speculative livery design) in Embleton's book on Medieval Military Costume. Jenn [ 03-23-2006: Message edited by: Fire Stryker ] -------------------- ad finem fidelis
Registered: May 2000 | IP: Logged
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Joram van Essen
Member
Member # 415
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posted 03-24-2006 05:09 AM
There is a page from a manuscript made for Antoon, which has a picture of his banner in the margine. The picture in the manuscript is the same as the picture drawn in the freezewater publication. Same as his motto, (just I cant make any sense of his motto). Its one of the pictures I havent scanned yet, so as soon as I find it again I will scan it and put link to it here. But basically when you want to do a livery for any of these high society guys you need to decide on time and place, as they change liviries and colours fairly frequently. For example, the mantling on Antoons Tournooi helm is blue and white in some manuscripts and paintings and blue and yellow in others, depending on which tournaments they are depicting / time they were made. Cheers
Joram -------------------- Fortiter et Fortis
www.medievalproductions.nl
Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged
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Fire Stryker
Admin & Advocatus Diaboli
Member # 2
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posted 03-24-2006 08:22 AM
Not sure what you mean by confusion. Thing about gaming resources is you have to use a grain of salt and realize that translation issues can occur and all livery colors are not consistent across time.I agree with Joram. If you are planning to portray one of the great lords or members of their household or retinue, you need to pick a time and place to narrow down the color choices. Page 31 of de Haynin's memoires, at least for Antoine's archers: "...et ses archers avoient paltotz rouges à tout la croix de Sainct-Andrieu blanche, et une barbecane au milieu de la croix. " Basically red paltots with a white cross of Saint Andrew and a barbican in the middle of the cross. Traditionally, I believe the barbican is blue. It's specific color wasn't mentioned. These are his archers at Monthlerey in 1465. J [ 03-24-2006: Message edited by: Fire Stryker ]
Registered: May 2000 | IP: Logged
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redrob
New Member
Member # 1018
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posted 03-24-2006 08:53 AM
I have a photo of the back of Hans Memling's Portrait of Antoine.
The background is very dark almost certainly the untreated wood.
Blue mantlet with a flame in the centre, beneath which is a group of three flames.
There is a cypher N at the left of the mantlet. I above and E on the right all three are intertwined with a gold tassled rope. Beneath all of this is the motto 'NUL NE SI FROTE'
This translates in modern Fr as 'one does not rub here' however I personally believe it was intended to mean something like 'dont push me'
The cypher apparently appears on some of his personal correspondance at Dijon, but I cannot get closer to it than a refernce - I dont know what sort of documents. Currently the cypher defies interpretation.
I am working through de la Marche and he lists at least three different liveries however only the dark yellow has all the elements associated with Antoine.
I'd love to see the document mentioned above. Cheers Redrob
Registered: Mar 2006 | IP: Logged
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posted 03-23-2006 02:33 PM
