From your experience and preferences, what weights of linen do you recommend for various 15thC garments?

IE:

Summer weight shirt:

Winter weight shirt:

Doublet liner:

Livery liner:

Helmet liner:

Table napkins:

The choices, cloth weights in oz.'s
3.5, 4.5, 5.5, 6.5, 7.0, 7.5, 8.0 or more!

How about historic thread counts? I have MoL Textiles book, but their linen topic is somewhat short. They discuss a few finds dating from the 13th - 15th centuries. The thread count per cm is 22/22 (warp/weft); that makes it what about 55 per inch?

Are there higher counts for linen. I have been looking via the internet, but this is a new area for me.

Sorry Friedrich, not trying to derail your thread, it seemed to be in line with your initial question.

My question was addressing the same questions Alienor has for web purchasing.

But understanding the thread count is also important as it refers to how fine the fabric is.

So I amend the question. Weight in oz (or gram) is important. But if the knowledgeable and so inclined could add a threadcount or vague "fineness" comment (how fine or course is the fabric), that would immensely add to the discussion!

quote:

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Originally posted by Friedrich:
The choices, cloth weights in oz.'s
3.5, 4.5, 5.5, 6.5, 7.0, 7.5, 8.0 or more!

What would you use???

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I've little experience of my own to share but I found the following guidelines useful (see below). They were sent in to another mailing list I'm on by the lady at www.reconstructinghistory.com.

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3.5 oz/yd Commonly referred to as "handkerchief weight".
Great for chemises.

5.2 oz/yd 5.5 oz/yd 5.9 oz/yd "Dress weight".
It has enough drape for a cotehardie to look lovely.
But still, the lighter colours are a little less than opaque.

7.4 oz/yd VERY coarse.
I'm using it for field garb for my betrothed.
It is heavy, and visibly coarse. It feels nice, but it looks very slubby.

But you wouldn't see through it, that's for sure!

I would buy 3.5 oz for both veils and underdress.
Unless a great portion of the underdress will be seen, then I would go
for 5.5 oz. Both white, of course.

I wouldn't make hosen out of linen because it doesn't have enough give,
even on the bias. But if I *had* to, I would make them out of 7.4 oz.
But I would rather make them out of wool (wash it well in hot water and
it won't itch).
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Myself I prefer to use wool for outer garments and I'm just now importing some linen so I finally learn what 3.5oz linen looks like. I have little idea of the accurate fineness, but my understanding is that it was finer than the "rustic" look so common nowadays, so if given a chance I'd go with the finest, smoothest weave I could find unless I intended to do a "poverty look".

Hope that helps! I would love to have a more technical answer, too.

quote:

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Myself I prefer to use wool for outer garments and I'm just now importing some linen so I finally learn what 3.5oz linen looks like.

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Absolutely. That said, the things Friedrich asked about are shirts and liners for garments, which as far as we know were always properly were made of linen, hemp, satin, or silk.

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That having been said, I'd like to point out that "satin" is a weave, not a fibre.

Additionally, "linen" can be applied to any fabric made from plant fibres, therefore there one finds hemp linen, flax linen, nettlecloth linen, and ramie linen.

V&A 8699-1863 14-15th century pouch - evenweave 28 threads per inch.
V&A 859-1899 14th century heraldic fragment - evenweave 52 threads per inch.
V&A 1567-1902 14th century large bag - evenweave 28 threads per inch.
V&A 7048-1860 14-15th century fragment - evenweave 20 threads per inch.
V&A 7093-1860 14th century fragment - evenweave 52 threads per inch.
V&A 7016-1860 14th century part of stole or maniple - evenweave 32 threads per inch.
V&A 7071-1860 14th century Banded Fragment - evenweave 72 threads per inch.
V&A 8646-1863 14th century Reliquary Bag Fragment - evenweave 51 threads per inch.
V&A 1324a-1864 Late 14th century Pillow - evenweave 28 threads per inch.
V&A 8313-1863 Late 14th century Bag - evenweave 37 threads per inch.

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Originally posted by chef de chambre:
Absolutely. That said, the things Friedrich asked about are shirts and liners for garments, which as far as we know were always properly were made of linen, hemp, satin, or silk. [/B]

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Sure! I made that comment because of the text I quoted was of course out of its original context, and mentioned using linen for a cotehardie, for example.

On the other hand... you got my interest up by including silk in the list of fibres for undergarments. Any idea how common that was?
My particular interest is late 15th c., southern half of Europe but I'll happily take any information.

Best regards,