I need the mottos of Phillip le Bon and Charles the Rash and clan.

I know one of them is "I will have no other", and another is "Not a Bad Reward for Labor". Are there others?

also, what are they in the the dialect of the time? its not just French, its funky Picardian french.

thanks muchly!
--AM

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To be historically correct, in his own day he was called "the Bold", or "The hard worker"/"industrious" - depending on your translation from the Dutch.

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quote:

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Originally posted by chef de chambre:
I'll give you them if you promise to stop calling him by his 19th century anti-Burgundian moniker affixed to him by French Nationalist Historians. I'll hold you to that promise as well..

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oh, OK....sheesh!

--AM, who has another name for her boss' half brother Chuck but only uses it to tweak Bob

(hey,

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You will have a list of known Burgundian mottos by 6PM EST.

How did you like my Charles-ian, Burgundian-esque, political negotiation?

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quote:

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Originally posted by chef de chambre:
Cool Beans AM,

You will have a list of known Burgundian mottos by 6PM EST.

How did you like my Charles-ian, Burgundian-esque, political negotiation?

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hee hee
love it!

did you like my Anthony-ian servant of the bastard brother of Charles response?

--AM, who really really appreciates that her and Bob can flip each other #$% with good humor

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Here is a partial list. I am still researching. Were I know who's motto it is, I'll include that as well.

Plus est en vous (More is in you) - Louis de Bruge, his badge,incidentally, was a bombard
Plus que vous (More than You)
Euw Plaissy (At your Pleasure) - this is Flemish. Both of the above mottos appear on flags in Die Burgunderbeute
Je L'ay Emprins (I have undertaken it) - Charles the Bold)
Bien en Avienne (May good come of it) - Margret of York - it finishes the sentiment of Charles motto)

I am still poking through my resources, so I'll probably wind up posting more later on.

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I almost forgot to add, to the best of my knowledge, the French ones I posted are in that funkey dialect, and the Flemish one in 15th c. Flemish.

Also, Phillip the Good took his motto "I will have no other", on marying his last dutchess. It was his primary motto from then on - considering the string of bastards, what a crock.

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all those mottos are really cool.

(but I guess that's part of the definition of a motto, eh?)

--AM

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Here are some more -

"Quand sera ce?" (When will it be?)
"Tost ou tarde vienne" (Soon or late it may come)
"Va oultre" (Onward)
"Autre fois mieulx" (Better next time)
"Plus deuil que joye" (More sorrow than joy) - Olivier de la March - I believe!
"Aultre naray" (I shall have no other) -Phillip the Good
"Vostre Plaisir" (Your pleasure)
"Souvienne vous" (Remember)
"Plus que toutes" (More than all)

Hope this helps.

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Excuse me but I'm confused. I thought people generally had one or at most 2 mottoes that were "theirs". I didn't know you were allowed to use 16 or 30.

These are mottos of different Burgundian noblemen - not the Ducal family. There are only three for the ducal family listed - Charles, Philips, and Margarets. All the rest belong to others.

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So, I "know" that one of the burgundian mottos is "not a bad reward for labor".

problem is, I cant track down WHY I know this. I must have read it somewhere, and like a doofus didnt document it.

can anyone help me on this? Have I been using an incorrect motto all these years?

ack!
--AM

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I did a little looking and found this entry from information regarding the Toison d'Or:

quote:

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The Order was, above all, a Christian foundation, even if its badge was not a Christian symbol. The exclusion of heretics confirmed in the Bull Praeclarae devotionis sinceritas meant that, following the reformation, it remained an exclusively Roman Catholic foundation. The name of the Order and its badge, a pendant sheep's fleece made of gold, was a new device for the House of Burgundy and was certainly intended to represent the fleece sought by Jason and the Argonauts - an heroic legend which paralleled the Arthurian origins of the Order of the Garter.

The adoption of a pagan image as the badge of a Christian Order led to a protest by the Order's first Chancellor, Jean Germain, Bishop of Nevers, who preferred that it should recall Gideon's fleece (which was neither gold nor a prize for courage). Later in the century, Chancellor Guillaume Filastes added the fleeces of Jacob, Mesa, Job and David to be associated with this image, making six in all and supposedly corresponding to the virtues of magnanimity, justice, prudence, fidelity, patience and clemency. The badge was to be suspended from a Collar adapted from an earlier livery badge to that of a Fire-Steel (fusil), resembling the Lombard B for Burgundy, throwing off flames (the central fire-steel being elaborated later into an ornate, enameled jewel, from which the badge was hung), and used to form the links of the Collar of the Order with the Fleece suspended below. These fire-steels, twenty-eight in number, alternated with pairs of finger rings, always in gold, while the statutes required that the Collar was not to be enriched with jewels - to give equality to the knights - a provision which, however, was later more honored in the breach. The central, elaborated B of the Collar came to bear the motto Pretium Laborum Non Vile ("Not a bad reward for labor") and, on the reverse, the motto Non Aliud (a translation of Philip the Good's motto "Autre n'auray" - "I will have no other").

During the sixteenth century the practice developed of wearing the badge suspended from a red ribbon on informal occasions and, today, this is how the badge is almost invariably worn in both the Spanish and Habsburg Orders.

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I didn't copy the fellow's footnotes, but a lot of this info can be found in the book "The Autumn of the Middle Ages". I was reading a paragraph in the book that reads almost exactly like the info above.

Jenn

Oh, if you have any heralds in your court, you can assign them names like "Toison d'or", "fusil", etc... Toison d'Or would be the King of Arms.

I came up with a few others, including Antoinnes.

Marmora Messalae findit caprificus. (The wild fig tree splits Messala's marble) Comte de Campobasso

Nul ne s'y frole.(with an accent over the O - None rubs himself there) Antoinne, Comte de Roche , Bastard of Burgundy

Qui non laborat non manducat. (He who works not shall not eat) Phillipe de Commynes

Ryens Mieux. (Smiling More) Anne of Cleves, daughter of Philip the Good.

To give credit where credit is due, these were found in the first issue of Dragon, the newsletter of the Company of St. George.

Hope this helps.

[ 01-04-2002: Message edited by: Fire Stryker ]

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So, the next time I see you guys, you will have Antoinnes badge (which, as you know from previous conversations, is a bombard firing through an open mantlet, cleverly forming a monogram A - in blue), and any of the males in your household who were considering playing soldier will be wearing his livery, which is a red paltot, with a White St. Andrews cross, with his badge in center.

Right?

You have it all now, Arms (Burgundy, with a bar sinister in red), motto, livery, and badge.

[ 01-04-2002: Message edited by: chef de chambre ]

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