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Author Topic: Early 15th century Question
Rhys
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Member # 185

posted 11-24-2001 01:51 AM     Profile for Rhys   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi all,
I have been pondering plaque/hip belts from the early 1400's. I figured that the off topic board would be the most appropriate place for this question.
I assume that the standard buckle was used for fastening the belt on the hips and then turned to the back. But that is assuming. Does anyone know of another kind of fastening system? I have seen diiferent types produced (hidden clasp, etc.) for "re-enactors" but I have not seen any evidence to support these fasteners.
Any pointers to documentation of any type of fastening system would be appreciated.
All the best,
Rhys
P.S.
I know that this forum is trying to keep to the mid to late 15th century topics. I apologize if this is out of context.

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All the best,
Rhys


Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fire Stryker
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posted 11-24-2001 09:00 AM     Profile for Fire Stryker   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Heya Rhys,

Actually the question falls within the timeframe of the board: 1150-1500. Many of us are late 15th c types, but there are a fair number of non-15s here as well.

That form of belt occasionally appears in the mid-fifteenth century. For instance, the effigy of Robert, Lord Hungerford c. 1455. Some of the later ones appear to be made entirely of plaques.

Unfortunately, I don't have any references as to how they were fastened. The MoL book on Buckles and Findings may provide one, but I don't know as I don't have it in my library.

The belts that appear to encircle the hips probably can't be fastened as a normal belt in that form. They may use hook and eye as we know the technology was used.

Sorry I can't be of more help.

Jenn


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fra.hulettaes
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posted 11-24-2001 08:36 PM     Profile for fra.hulettaes   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Rhys,
The Hotel de Cluny in Paris has a large collection of these belts from that era. I didn't find it online, however, this site has some photos from the collection which are excellent and if you click on the image, you get a nice, large photo. Good luck,
Joan the Terrier Diligent

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Why pay someone to do it right when you can screw it up yourself for free?


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Fire Stryker
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posted 11-25-2001 08:01 AM     Profile for Fire Stryker   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi Rhys,

I moved this topic out of the Off Topic as it seemed "out of place" there.

Jenn


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Rhys
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Member # 185

posted 11-25-2001 06:43 PM     Profile for Rhys   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi,
Thank you for the information. I was not aware of the MoL book, so I will hunt for it.
Do we know if the plaques were attached to a leather or fabric backing? I had thought that they might and thus the buckle.
Joan, thank you for the link! I am disappointed that I was not aware of that part of Cluny, as I was there five years ago.
Jenn,
Thanks for moving the thread. I was unsure where to post this question.

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All the best,
Rhys


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hauptmann
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posted 11-25-2001 08:59 PM       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
"Unfortunately, I don't have any references as to how they were fastened. The MoL book on Buckles and Findings may provide one, but I don't know as I don't have it in my library."

The buckled fastening shoved around back is documentable. Bob Charrette of La Belle does his this way and he and I have talked about it. You usually have to look at 3D effigies and look around the side and you can see them. To the best of my knowledge, other types of fastenings would be speculative.

The MOL book containing the buckles and other girdle hardware is called:

Dress Accessories: Medieval finds from excavations in London.

Unless the MoL has published something new, this is probably the best book in the series for this type of thing.

Since almost no belt survive except the extremely fancy ones, it is difficult to make very educated guesses on what the average plaque belts looked like and how they were constructed. It seems likely that plaques that were affixed to a backing could have been attached with prongs or cast-in rivets, some mounts in my collection have roundish shanks cast in and usually get bent over on the backside of the backing material. Some extant plaques also seem to be configured to link together, requiring no backing, though this method seems to be the exception rather than the most typical method.


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fra.hulettaes
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posted 11-26-2001 08:28 PM     Profile for fra.hulettaes   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Rhys,
I was wrong, the Hotel de Cluny is online atthislocation.
Cheers, Joan the Terrier Diligente

--------------------

Why pay someone to do it right when you can screw it up yourself for free?


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fra.hulettaes
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posted 11-27-2001 12:06 AM     Profile for fra.hulettaes   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hey, Jeff,
I just found this site. Apparently, they're re-publishing the Medieval finds from excavations books. According to the site, all of them will be re-issued, the dress accessory one included.
Cheers, Joan

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Why pay someone to do it right when you can screw it up yourself for free?


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Rhys
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Member # 185

posted 11-28-2001 07:08 PM     Profile for Rhys   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Jeffrey and Joan,
Thank you very much for the pointers, I greatly appreciate it.
Now I must search for The MoL book, which is the second that I need to get. I have been after Shoes and Pattens for a couple years now.

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All the best,
Rhys


Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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