thanks!

Welcome to the list. I don't know what the LMB list is, so I don't know if a reply here is still in order.

What county are you portraying? I don't want to assume the Lowlands, even though that seems fairly obvious. Also, what is the status of the household your girl will be serving, and in what capacity?

Hope you don't mind Joeri, this was her response to my initial response regarding some good books to look at for ideas.

Taken from LMB list:

quote:

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Quite right ofcourse.
As a reenactor I think I will be serving guests at a dinner during a feast and normally I will assist mylady and mylord with cleaning, cooking etc. So I asume I would be wearing normal clothing most of the time, a bit finer while serving guests. Mylady and mylord are wealthy merchants, not extremely rich.

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This should help frame some answers.

Cheers,

Jenn

Second thought is that a scullery maid would wear something entirely different than that of a chamber maid or lady in waiting. All servants of course, but of entirely differnt status, and of course attired differently.

Even though her masters are middle class, I feel it is highly unlikely that the scullery girl would be serving. If the household could not afford valets to serve, the chamberlain/steward/bulter would serve table, not a woman.

Think "Upstairs / Downstairs" in 15th C. clothing. The concept of class distinctions among servants, and that women are seen in public as little as possible is not a product of the Victorian era!

Yes, I am sure this was the situation at castles and very rich families.
But A family who had only one servant and a 3 room house would have a maid to do antyhing they could think off.
I am not thinking about a huge household, just a family who hires someone to help out.
This servant would clean, cook and bring food to the table.

"Even though her masters are middle class, I feel it is highly unlikely that the scullery girl would be serving. If the household could not afford valets to serve, the chamberlain/steward/bulter would serve table, not a woman."

They dont have one.

"Think "Upstairs / Downstairs" in 15th C. clothing. The concept of class distinctions among servants, and that women are seen in public as little as possible is not a product of the Victorian era!"

I know, but things may have been different in a small town in the netherlands.
Women were everywhere and did not hide indoors.
A common women with no money, husband or job is hired by a somewhat richer women to do chores and become a servant.

on the subject of serving folks...

there is a manuscript illo (a bit later than 15th century) of a master sitting at his table, warming his feet at the fire and a woman is bringing him a meal. THe Museum of London used a redrawn example for the cover of their "Medieval Household" book.

is the woman his wife? a serving girl? dunno. BUT we can look at her clothing...she's wearing typical everyday clothing of the period. Nothing super fancy, just clothing.

Joeri, I'd recommend that you look into comfortable sensible clothing. A dress without long drippy sleeve bits to fall into your work. Of course cover your hair as suits your station, age and sex (also keeping it out of the food, etc ). Little or no ornament or jewelry, except maybe a pilgrams badge or a simple cheap ring (ie pot metal, not silver or gold) your hems should be just above your feet, not touching or dragging the ground. An apron of course will keep your dress clean...when you only have one or two, you need to take care of them!

Lots of us do middle class 15th century Flemish and so can point you to TONS of pictoral references. There are commercial patterns out there that will get you started, or you can buy stuff off the rack if that's the route you want to go.

again, welcome!
hope this was helpful,
--Anne-Marie
Both Gwen and Joeri have expressed ideas from two seperate direction. Gwen expressed the "reality" of how medieval society imagined itself. Joeri expressed the way we think it must practically have worked. The reality exists probobly someplace inbetween.

If a family had one servant to serve them and it was a women then yes she probobly would serve dinner to the family. But more than likely this family would not be doing much entertaining of guests to serve. Maybe a friend of the family or passerby comming through town.

As for clothing. You would be wearing what any other lower class woman in your location wore. If there was company or if you were attending your lady when she was out and dressed up you would probobly simply wear your newest and nicest dress as opposed to the older and worn ones that you would do daily work in.

As for Women in society and how it compared to later periods its not worth argueing. The scholars in the field can't even agree how to interperate evidence yet let alone what alot of it says.

And a word of advise Joeri, watch out for your masters advances they can get you into trouble.

Brent[/B][/QUOTE]

Thannks Anna Marie;
on the subject of serving folks...

"there is a manuscript illo (a bit later than 15th century) of a master sitting at his table, warming his feet at the fire and a woman is bringing him a meal. THe Museum of London used a redrawn example for the cover of their "Medieval Household" book."

I think I have seen it, very nice.
Thank you I'll try and find it in my personal library.

"is the woman his wife? a serving girl? dunno. BUT we can look at her clothing...she's wearing typical everyday clothing of the period. Nothing super fancy, just clothing."

Yeah we may never know, if I remember correct that dress may be what I am looking for.
Thanks for reminding me.

"Joeri, I'd recommend that you look into comfortable sensible clothing. A dress without long drippy sleeve bits to fall into your work. Of course cover your hair as suits your station, age and sex (also keeping it out of the food, etc )."

Yes, thanks!
Thats exactly what I am looking for, all I need now is more pictures I can work with.

"Little or no ornament or jewelry, except maybe a pilgrams badge or a simple cheap ring (ie pot metal, not silver or gold)"

Brilliant, I already have 2 medieval rings, very common.
One engagement ring and a wedding ring, I'll tell the public I got one from my parents.

"your hems should be just above your feet, not touching or dragging the ground. An apron of course will keep your dress clean...when you only have one or two, you need to take care of them! "

Shorter dress, thats a detail I need to know as most medieval dresses are very long.
Short would be more practical.
I know about the aprons, I have one and after just one day it looked like a bomb exploded in it.
Only one day of authentic medieval work and that apron needed cleaning.
So I'll get two.

"Lots of us do middle class 15th century Flemish and so can point you to TONS of pictoral references."

Excellent!
Please do!
I also have a website about medieval women so I can use all the pictures I can get.

"There are commercial patterns out there that will get you started, or you can buy stuff off the rack if that's the route you want to go."

Thats ok, I already have a 14th century dress, handmade from 100% wool.
So I have some experience.

"Both Gwen and Joeri have expressed ideas from two seperate direction. Gwen expressed the "reality" of how medieval society imagined itself. Joeri expressed the way we think it must practically have worked. The reality exists probobly someplace inbetween."

quite right.

"If a family had one servant to serve them and it was a women then yes she probobly would serve dinner to the family. But more than likely this family would not be doing much entertaining of guests to serve. Maybe a friend of the family or passerby comming through town."

Yes that is exactly the situation.
And if there is a large feast I will be sitting in a corner and if my lord and lady need plates cleaned or something they will ask me.
The food will be served by proper servants.

"As for clothing. You would be wearing what any other lower class woman in your location wore. If there was company or if you were attending your lady when she was out and dressed up you would probobly simply wear your newest and nicest dress as opposed to the older and worn ones that you would do daily work in."

Yes, thanks!
I was just wondering if in the 15th century people started wearing clothes that showed their proffesion, like a special uniform for the maid, cook, etc.
Apperently they started doing this a bit later.

"As for Women in society and how it compared to later periods its not worth argueing. The scholars in the field can't even agree how to interperate evidence yet let alone what alot of it says."

Hehehe, I know.

"And a word of advise Joeri, watch out for your masters advances they can get you into trouble. "

Too late!
Just kidding, but I know.
During another dinner some other gentlemen almost got me intro trouble, my master sort of stopped this nonsense.
Absolutely not done!
Common maid dancing and flirting with a drunk lord!
Shame on me...

Heheheh, thanks again all.
Get those picture coming in!

its a good collection of appropriate fashions/styles for lower/middle class folks. I think the gal in the orange dress on the end is a handmaiden or ladies maid, based on her very impractical getup .

good luck!