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Topic: 14thc Buckler ?
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Martin
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Member # 603
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posted 06-03-2004 06:05 AM
   
[ 09-02-2004: Message edited by: Martin ] -------------------- Verpa es, qui istuc leges. Non es fidenter scripto!
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Martin
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posted 06-03-2004 04:01 PM
[ 09-02-2004: Message edited by: Martin ] -------------------- Verpa es, qui istuc leges. Non es fidenter scripto!
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Martin
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posted 06-04-2004 12:58 AM
[ 09-02-2004: Message edited by: Martin ] -------------------- Verpa es, qui istuc leges. Non es fidenter scripto!
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Woodcrafter
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Member # 197
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posted 06-07-2004 12:05 AM
Well Martin, here is a pic of what looks like to me to be wooden bucklers with metal bosses.  So they do exist. Perhaps I will make both and see which one I like the most. Probably the metal one. :-) -------------------- Woodcrafter
14th c. Woodworking
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Martin
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posted 06-07-2004 11:31 AM
[ 09-02-2004: Message edited by: Martin ] -------------------- Verpa es, qui istuc leges. Non es fidenter scripto!
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Mart Shearer
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Member # 364
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posted 06-08-2004 03:41 PM
Although this information is not particulary helpful for the late 14th century, it was simple to find in a search.
http://patriot.net/~nachtanz/KReed/buckler.html There are a number of images of bucklers from the early 14th century Codex Manesse. While it would be unwise to rely solely on the manuscripts colors to determine wood was used, coloration can be indicative. For example: http://www.tempora-nostra.de/manesse/img/062.jpg
The left figure showing the inside of his buckler seems to be equipped with an all-iron example, but his unskilled opponent looks more like latten or gilt iron over leather. The two examples seen here might be leather with iron bosses: http://www.tempora-nostra.de/manesse/img/068.jpg This oft-reproduced image shows a green buckler with a likely iron boss: http://www.tempora-nostra.de/manesse/img/126.jpg
Why paint part of the iron green and leave the boss polished? Consider that we know wooden shields were usually covered in leather which was often gessoed and painted and determine which is more likely represented. How best to interpret the differences in color seen on the bucklers in the Holkham Picture Bible? http://www.thehaca.com/arttalk/at2.htm While the declining price of iron might make all metal bucklers more common, or perhaps more prevelant, by the late 1300's, the first link provided shows that leather covered wood remained in use for some time.
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Martin
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posted 06-08-2004 04:14 PM
[ 09-02-2004: Message edited by: Martin ] -------------------- Verpa es, qui istuc leges. Non es fidenter scripto!
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Woodcrafter
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Member # 197
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posted 06-08-2004 09:34 PM
Wow both sides with good examples.Mart, what size are those three originals and what size is the reproduction? Also do you know what wood was used for the reproduction? Also what is the original wood? Martin, I agree with you that a wood buckler would be easily chopped up. But so would a sword be destroyed if it was laid across a gap and struck with a large weapon on the flat. In use a sword is moved, and in use a buckler is not struck, but does the striking. You yourself said they can be sharp edged. In alot of the pictures, they are striking the opponent or fowling the opponents guard. I have made extensive use of bucklers and shields in SCA rapier combat. People refer to them as 'dial-a-death'. Simply because most people try and hide behind them and let the shield do the blocking. Neither is the shield fast enough to track and defend against a moving sword tip. And I am talking super light shields here. So far I have produced eight shields from 8 inch diameter (20cm) to 20 inch diameter (50cm approx) almost all at 1/4 inch thick (5cm). Now my favourite is a 14 inch diameter. As soon as my opponents point stops moving, my shield is on it like glue. If I get past his point, my shield is now on his guard and my hand is the same 'time' as his hand. In neither case is the buckler being chopped. My interpretation of this example is the fellow on the left has used his sword to stop his opponents attack, and while the blade has been stopped, the buckler is moved onto it to control it. I interpret it this way because if the shield was doing the initial blocking, then he should also be striking his opponent with the sword in the same 'time.' A long sword would chop up a buckler, but the buckler seems in original condition.
Possible judicial combat. When I first started fighting with a buckler and rapier, people laughed at me because it was 'dial-a-death.' After using one for a month, I got three orders, where people paid me $40 CAD to make them a buckler too. This is ontop of the others who made there own out of garbage can lids and scrap wood from pallets. Too small a buckler is useless as it is easy for your opponent to dodge it with his sword tip, and too large a buckler is cumbersome close in. It seems 12 to 14 inches is about 'right.' Here is another agressive buckler move where the man on the left traps his opponents sword and buckler, leaving his weapon free.
Buckler press Again the warrior on the left aggressively uses his buckler to trap and push his opponents left arm across his body, turning him and exposing his opponents back to attack. You can see that his buckler has been turned, this does happen when they are struck inline with the fingers, OR you wish to use your palm to manipulate your opponent. If there was no buckler, it would look like he was doing a Fiori elbow push.
Fiori move My thanks to Mart for those examples. So to sum up, I believe both wood and metal bucklers are valid. Their survival is dependant upon their use. A longsword striking a non-moving 18 gauge buckler is going to do damage to it. I see 18 gauge helms split along with the owner's head.
Unapposed sword blows to 18 gauge helms over mail. [I feel I need to add that I did not learn to fence in the SCA. I started in 1974, learning from a registered fencing master who taught modern olympic style fencing. I trained three hours a day, three days a week for seven years. You only get out of life, what you put into it.] [ 06-08-2004: Message edited by: Woodcrafter ] -------------------- Woodcrafter
14th c. Woodworking
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Ivo
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Member # 297
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posted 06-13-2004 03:42 PM
Hello.Funny...Viking shiels were made of planks, Roman shields were made of laminated wood...why are wooden bucklers in question anyway?
Especially if one can easily strengthen them with rawhide for the face and rim, or even metal edge bindings and strips. Regards Ivo -------------------- Ivo
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Woodcrafter
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Member # 197
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posted 06-13-2004 05:48 PM
Because the difference in time from the Romans to the 14thc is about 1k years. The difference between 14thc and now is 600 years. You may as well be saying the difference between a 14thc handegonne and a modern handgun is nil. Hence our discussion as to what was done. I am very cautious not to lump what people were doing at the start of any century, to being the same as at the end of that century.I concur that over the years of the medieval period, some shields were faced in leather, but was it done in the latter half of the 14thc, in England, specifically to bucklers? Is there a surviving text explaining how to make one, or a museum piece created that way from the 14thc. If we find a 14thc Mongolian shield to those specifications, how then does an English warrior explain this is a common shield for an English warrior? -------------------- Woodcrafter
14th c. Woodworking
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Anders Helseth
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Member # 302
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posted 06-16-2004 09:00 AM
Hi everyone!Your email got through Mart, Its just me being a bit slow. We had a little disussion of this type of buckler on the AA some time ago. I believe most of the information you seek can be found there.
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7398&highlight=norwegian+buckler Make sure to read Vegard's (the maker)post near the the end of the thread , as that is the most informative. I would just like to add that the Norwegian Archeologist Grieg dated them to the 13.-14.c in the forties, on the basis of contemporary art. However, those centuries were sort of a pre-reneissance over here - and almost all the medieval art we have come from that period. I am not saying he was wrong, but from the only sources available to him, it would be very difficult to come up with a different conclusion. Personally I think it is impossible to date them more precisely than 1150-1550 (or when bucklers were commonplace), unless a dendrodating (tree-ring analysis) was made - and that is not very likely.
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posted 05-25-2004 10:51 PM
