In the only believable reconstruction I have seen, the "knee cop" (I think that is what you are refering to) is pointed to the gamboised cuisse. As sson as you put a rivet through a fabric, by punching the hole, you cut the threads and it will unravel. Besides, it can then be removed for maintenance.

It is mere speculation, as no gamboised cuises survive, monumental representation is vauge, and no good description to the best of my knowledge exists of how they were affixed. It is what we call in the "bizz" a speculative reconstruction. Then again, your 130 years off from what I've studied regarding armour, so perhaps someone else can give a more definitive description I'm unaware of.

Oh yes, this is Chef de Chambre, as Firestryker hadn't logged out.

[ 01-14-2002: Message edited by: Fire Stryker ]

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I've gone for gamboised cuisses rather then metal ones as the metal cuisses aren't that friendly on saddles.

As very little 14th century armour survives most reconstructions are speculative but I think that attaching the polyn directly to the fabric of a gamboised cuisse would not work as the rivet would quickly pull though the fabric.

So the polyn could be attached through the inner and outer metal splint (if you have internal splits) or could be left floating free of the cuisse. Either option is practical as the bottom part of the polyn is riveted to the metal greave and would stay in position as the greave would support it.

Although this is my interpretation only and I would welcome other ideas...

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URL=http://www.jousting.co.nz

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As soon as you put a rivet through a fabric, by punching the hole, you cut the threads and it will unravel.

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It is possible to put a rivet through fabric without "punching" a hole. The same is possible with points. All one need do is use an awl to spread the weave of the fabric, then use the stitching normally found on a sewn eyelet to hold the hole open. If one is putting rivets through fabric, you can dispense with the stitching entirely, as the rivet will stay to hold the hole open.

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What im curious about is i believe i have seen effigy pics that show what looks like a row of rivits across the top of the polyens
And what seems to be a seperate piece of cloth behind the polyens and on top of the cuisse.
I guess i could use advice on where on the polyen i shouldm place the hole to point them

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When I have made poleyns for late 13th and early 14th century portrayals, I rivet a strip of leather to both upper and lower edges of the cop and have the rivet heads show, like the "row of rivets" you mention. The client then (as far as I know) has stitched through the strip onto the gamboised cuisses. The cuisses go from hip to upper part of the shin, forming both the thigh and the "demi-greave" sections. I believe this is probably most historically correct, despite lack of extant examples, as this make most sense. Think of a gamboised cuisse as a truncated chausse. You could even have the upper end terminate in a loop for a belt, which seems like the most plausible way to suspend them. Furthermore, the cuisses, since they are a flexible defense, could wrap around the rear of the leg with a cut out behind the knee to save bulk. More like a chausse in all.

A strap holding the poleyn to the knee seems requisite. One wouldn't want the cop flopping around or hanging loose. I know some people avoid straps on knee cops because of the perception that a strap will be uncomfortable or add too much bulk, but this is untrue. A 1/2" wide strap adds little bulk and is very necessary for security of the leg harness. Comparing the configurations will make you a believer. Try it.

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I've gone for gamboised cuisses rather then metal ones as the metal cuisses aren't that friendly on saddles.

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I don't see why metal cuisses should damage a saddle if they're cut correctly. I wear steel cuisses with my 15 century harness and don't experience any saddle damage. The cuisses must be cut back on the inside and be quite asymetrical inside to outside. If yours are symetrical, they are either made for foot combat or are made improperly.

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As very little 14th century armour survives most reconstructions are speculative but I think that attaching the polyn directly to the fabric of a gamboised cuisse would not work as the rivet would quickly pull though the fabric.

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I reiterate my feeling that cops should be stitched through the lining strip onto the cuisses (see above).

Based on the research I've done, it seems inappropriate to use gamboised cuisses for late 14th century harness. Most effigies exhibiting cuisses of this type are early to mid 14th century, the end of the fashion seeming to come around 1350 or so. Splinted leg harness is really a different animal, and I wonder about combining it with a gamboised defense.

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Either option is practical as the bottom part of the polyn is riveted to the metal greave and would stay in position as the greave would support it.

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This is a little confusing to me. Why have a metal greave when you don't have a metal cuisse?

Perhaps a more appropriate lower leg defense would be a formed leather greave? There is some evidence for cuir boille greaves, and I've seen at least one reconstruction that was very plausible. If you already have steel greaves, you could use them as lasts to form the leather ones.

Generally, it seems to me that you may want to determine the specific decade you want to orient you harness within. That could help you figure out specifically what would comprise the defenses and materials therein. If you are indeed doing post 1360 or so, I'd strongly suggest steel cuisses of the proper inside cut, as it seems by most of the evidence that gamboised cuisses would be out of fashion by then.

My early leg harness were leather cuisses and greaves lined with exposed metal splits and articulating with plate polyns. I found the the rivets after a reasonable amount of use started to pull through the 3mm thick leather used for the cuisses and polyns.

Also I found that the splint cuisses did occassionally catch on the saddle and caparison and either scratch or rip them when I either intentionally (or untentionally!) dismounted.

When I decided to upgrade my entire harness to circa-1375 last year I decided to stay with the splinted cuisse idea but to line it with fabric and decorative rivets.

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URL=http://www.jousting.co.nz