|
Author
|
Topic: scabard fittings
|
Phillipe de Pamiers
Member
Member # 171
|
posted 10-23-2001 11:54 AM
    
I would like to aquire the metal fittings for a scabard and am looking for names of people who might make them. In particular I am looking for fittings from circa 1370.If you have the name of some one who does 15th century scabard fittings that would be appriciated as well. -------------------- Phillipe de Pamiers
Registered: May 2001 | IP: Logged
|
|
McIntosh
Member
Member # 166
|
posted 10-23-2001 12:47 PM
Dear Phillip,
As I have just completed mouth and chape for a 1700's hanger I can share a little wisdom with you. If you do not have the scabbard made yet, don't! It was a real bear to fit the metal to an extant scabbard. Rather have the crafter make the pieces, with the full knowldge of the sword and it's size and pattern, then make the scabbard to fit the pieces. Shaping wood is much easier to do than shaping metal.-------------------- McIntosh
Registered: Apr 2001 | IP: Logged
|
|
hauptmann
unregistered
|
posted 10-23-2001 04:10 PM
While it is not exactly "easy" to form metal fittings to fit sword scabbards, I have made enough fittings to know this is the way it should be done, not the other way around.Wooden scabbards are most often covered with fabric or leather and it is not exactly practical to alter the shape of the scabbard where the fittings go once the covering is applied, and the fittings should not be fabricated without the covering in place. The thickness of the covering will alter the fit of the metal pieces. I feel that most scabbards in most periods were probably made of leather, largely because wooden scabbards are very vulnerable to damage when the sword is not there. This is of primary concern when in combat, as the scabbard gets jostled and knocked around A LOT when amidst other infantry or horsemen. Leather scabbards since they are flexible, will not possibly break like a wooden cored scabbard. Because it is not possible to alter the shape of a leather scabbard to match the metal fittings, the chape and locket must be fabricated to fit the leather. I have made dozens of scabbard fittings, and yes, they're tough to do. I still have a certain amount of frustration in fabricating them. I've done steel, brass, and nickel silver. One piece, two piece, soldered, seamed, shelled; the whole nine yards. They're still difficult. The primary key is to create some specialized tooling for forming and anneal the metal several times during forming. Don't be afraid to solder; period ones were. [ 10-23-2001: Message edited by: hauptmann ]
IP: Logged
|
|
Phillipe de Pamiers
Member
Member # 171
|
posted 10-23-2001 04:22 PM
Jeff,Thanks for the advise, Luckily I have a friend who can help me with the scabard pieces. That solves one problem. What about the belt fittings; buckles, strap hangers? -------------------- Phillipe de Pamiers
Registered: May 2001 | IP: Logged
|
|
Seigneur de Leon
Member
Member # 65
|
posted 10-23-2001 07:51 PM
I agree with Hauptman on the chape and locket. I've done about a half-dozen, and always formed the metal around the scabbard. I use leather for the later period ones, however, earlier period (800 to 1100) were done with wood because of the relative value of the sword. It was probably the most expensive item a milites would own.
The way I did my Viking sword was: I started with some fleece, shaved it to about a half inch and stitched it up with the sword inside. The lanolin in the wool helps prevent rust, plus, a bit of overlap on the throat keeps moisture out. I then traced it onto two pieces of basswood (the closest I could find in the US to linden wood) and chiseled out the shape. I shaped it with a combination of tools as small as I could. (Ruined one piece by getting it to thin.) I then glued the wood around the fleece-wearing sword, and wrapped the whole thing in wet rawhide, stitching this up the back. Once that dried, it was hard as a rock, but ugly. I found the thinnest deer hide I could find and glued/stitched that over the rawhide. Lamb or pigskin would have worked equally as well, as long as it was garment grade. I then cut the extra fleece at the throat even, folded it over the deer and glued. The sword slides easily out of the scabbard, but won't fall out if you hold it upside down.
For the chape I chose bronze, about 14-15 guage, and drew the pattern I wanted on a piece of paper I had molded and trimmed around the tip. I glued that on, drilled holes for the inside cuts, used a jewelers' saw and a small file to clean them up, then dished the shape. I grinded and filed until the two pieces were just a tad too small. Next, I took it to a friend who is a welder and he brazed the two pieces together, the gaps being necessary to put the bead of braze in. The result fit perfectly. I then grinded, filed, sanded and polished the chape until I was satisfied, glued it and tapped the bronze down into the leather a bit before the glue dried.
I also made the belt tip and plaques the same way, & the buckle was cast like this: I took a 'D' ring a little too thick and pushed it into the casting sand. Next, I took a pencil eraser to push some lobes where the dragon heads were to be. I melted machine wax and poured that into the mold. I carved the resulting wax form into the design I had in mind, the machine wax allowing filing and sanding etc... until I got the detail desired. We used this as the mold to cast it in bronze.
I will post a picture as soon as I get done, I still have 4 more plaques to do (already have done 9 or 10), although it may be a month or so before I finally finish. I believe the period way would have been to cut the bronze with chisels (punchwork) but you do what you can.-------------------- VERITAS IN INTIMO
VIRES IN LACERTU
SIMPLICITAS IN EXPRESSO
Registered: Nov 2000 | IP: Logged
|
|
chef de chambre
Admin & Advocatus Diaboli
Member # 4
|
posted 10-23-2001 09:32 PM
Hi All,I haven't made chapes for scabbards, and to date I've only made wood sheaths for daggers - nothing larger. From what I understand, you need the sheath to make the metalwork for it. I recently had been talking with Mac about this whole process, and I concur mostly with Jeff regarding many later scabbards were probably leather, especialy plainer varieties. There seems to have been at least 3 and probably more methods of scabbard construction, plain leather, as mentioned, hollowed out 'beefier' wood lathes as mentioned by Seigneur de Leon (an extant specimen from the first decade of the 14th century is a velvet covered wood scabbard, found in the tomb of the Cangrande Scalla - exactly like the beefier wood ones), and a third method described below, whose construction was described to me by Mac.
The fancy ones showing up in those early Flemish masters paintings where they seem to have the same diamond cross section as the blade did have a wood core - Mac has had a chance to examine some fragments, but they weren't hollowed out as earlier scabbards, they are flat lathes of wood, 1/12th of an inch thick. He had some reference as to how they were made, and it jived with what he saw - the lathes cut fractionaly larger than the blade, but to it's shape. Take and(of beech or maple - some non tanin laden wood) being soak them in water, and cover the blade of the sword with tallow, then cover the exterior of the wood with some binding agent (the source said 'paste' - he has used carpenters glue, but though cheese glue might be better), and take a long thin strip of linen (or strips of good rag paper), and carefully bind it together. Let the construction dry completely, and sand excess if necessary. Then you glue/sew your leather cover in place, and add your chape, throat (if any), and lockets (if any - some sheaths just have a chape). The actual example he had examined had apparently used off-prints of a bible binding the lathes together. Yes, sword out the contraption is fragile, but it is as sturdy as any other sheath with the blade in place. The item would be easy to replace, and inexpensive (heck, you could probably reuse chapes and lockets). Just because it would be easily broken doesn't mean it would not be used - it gives that snazzy, thin, blade-mimicing fashionable shape to the sheath that you see in 15th century art. As a holdover, many earlier military sabres with metal sheaths had the metal applied over a thin wood core. Mac had pointed out some 16th or 17th century treatise he had been looking at regarding some type of mechanical press used wood wedges - called "scabbards" to wedge some part of the machinery. They were to be precisely 1/12" thick, which makes him think that this was a standard thickness for scabbard lathes. -------------------- Bob R.
Registered: May 2000 | IP: Logged
|
|
McIntosh
Member
Member # 166
|
posted 10-24-2001 12:14 AM
Hauptman- You do not need to apply the overlay to get the fitting right. Use part of the overlay material as a spacer on the inside of the fitting to test so that you get the proper amount of stand off. This way you can remove wood and refine contours until the pieces just fit. Then apply the overlay and affix the fittings.
I am not sure what you mean by leather scabbards could not be shaped. Could you shed some light here?-------------------- McIntosh
Registered: Apr 2001 | IP: Logged
|
|
hauptmann
unregistered
|
posted 10-24-2001 01:07 AM
I disagreee about the covering not needing to be in place. For me, it is an ass backward technique to shape the scabbard core to fit the metal chape and locket. Specialized craftsmen made these items in period, they had all the skill and proper tools necessary to make the metal fit the sheath; wouldn't have to cheat and grind down the core. I'm not saying it's not possible to do it your way, I just don't believe it's the right way or the predominant way it was done in the Middle Ages.Leather sheaths are only one thickness of leather (two on knives) and generally the leather is not thick enough to grind down to fit to metal fittings. To do so I again think would be cheating and not yield a superior product. Bob, I believe the third method you described (as per Mac) seems a reasonable method of construction (I'll probably try it sometime), but consider whether a scabbard should be considered "expendable" on a day to day basis. Any weapon and scabbard worthy of nice fittings would likely be made strong enough to hold up to banging between a couple of horses so it doesn't get snapped like a twig the moment the wearer draws his sword in a charge. Don't you agree? Remember, it's likely the user would want to RESHEATH his weapon after the battle, not just shove it in his belt 'cause his scabbard done broke... I'd like to point out that I made the wooden cored, leather covered scabbard (with nice fittings for a nice Del tin piece) for my bastard sword just a little longer than the blade. The first time I wore it, I was bridling Bella up in the corral and Bill's horse, Sox, sauntered slowly by, banged his fetlock into the tip of my scabbard (which had a chape of brass) and the thing "done broke" off just past the tip of the blade. The core was pine, but is generally stronger than basswood or poplar and it still broke. Luckily, I was able to peel the leather covering back, clean up the ragged break and replace the leather and chape. Had the sword been out of the sheath, it likely would have broken further up. I keep waiting for the day Bill and I ride at a canter alongside each other in a tactical, I have my sword drawn and Sox swerves into my side. SNAP! Makes me less of a believer in wood cored scabbards. The lath method intrigues me. Could be a technique that provides a bit more resilient base that doesn't require carving a channel in the wood, which would reduce the labor and time, which is why I believe in leather scabbards. Though it seems likely that leather scabbards may have been more prevalent on swords below the top end of the scale. [ 10-24-2001: Message edited by: hauptmann ]
IP: Logged
|
|
Seigneur de Leon
Member
Member # 65
|
posted 10-24-2001 01:50 AM
Jeff - one question on the breakage, what type of leather, and what did you use to glue it? As I said earlier, when using rawhide, it dried hard as a rock. Garment-weight leather over rawhide over wood over fleece and I think you'd have difficulty breaking this scabbard unless you put your knee in the middle and pulled up on both sides. The basswood by itself you could snap with no difficulty. Perhaps the combination of unlike coverings gives it more strength? The rawhide is brittle, but it is like fibreglass cloth, the deer & sheep are soft, flexible and forgiving, and the wood adds rigidness. All on their own are insufficient, but together it works. I would think velvet or canvas would serve the same purpose as the deer. I'll have to check my Oakeshott, but I don't remember off-hand any swords with fleece linings in the 14th or 15th century. Perhaps this isn't appropriate?Oh, and by the way, the 3 15th C. scabbards I have made are thick leather with a back seam saddle-stitched with brass chapes and lockets so I'm not arguing with your conclusion. The 2 Spanish and 1 Italian scabbards found in tombs are the only ones I've seen mentioned with wood, and with a dull-edged sword meant for thrusting, I don't see the purpose in protecting the blade like the earlier period ones. An estoc wouldn't require the same treatment as a Viking blade of iron (which could bend with the horse collision you suggested) and a sharp steel edge (which could cut through the leather) so would not require the same treatment. [ 10-24-2001: Message edited by: Seigneur de Leon ] -------------------- VERITAS IN INTIMO
VIRES IN LACERTU
SIMPLICITAS IN EXPRESSO
Registered: Nov 2000 | IP: Logged
|
|
chef de chambre
Admin & Advocatus Diaboli
Member # 4
|
posted 10-24-2001 08:44 AM
Hi Jeff,Actually been thinking about this one a bit. Perhaps with the lathes so thin, there is more bend than break in them? If so, it would make sense for all those fancy scabbards presumably of this type seen in artwork on people of the upper classes. -------------------- Bob R.
Registered: May 2000 | IP: Logged
|
|
McIntosh
Member
Member # 166
|
posted 10-24-2001 11:10 AM
Hauptman- Are fittings and scabbards made by the same people in the middle ages? Does anybody have a lead on a guild that covered this? My thinking on this is that, like so many other multi-part products, the parts were farmed out to other artisans/crafters to be assembled later. As the metal parts are the hardest part to make fit and the wood is cheaper to replace if you take off one slice too many it is the metal bits that control the process. Fiddling with them is the real bottle neck. Doing a lot of them would give you a good eye for which fittings will accomodate which swords etc.
As for the guild questions are there English translations of specific charters and rules available? What might I be looking for to track such down?-------------------- McIntosh
Registered: Apr 2001 | IP: Logged
|
|
hauptmann
unregistered
|
posted 10-24-2001 12:00 PM
Yes, I believe there was division of labor; specialization in craft. I don't think the same craftsman made both. I don't have any research available on the guild structure. I wonder if there is any.This separation in craft is what leads me to believe that fittings were made after the scabbard. The craftsmen were probably skilled enough that making fittings fit the core wasn't any big deal. Maybe you found that in making your fittings that it was easier to alter the scabbard to fit the fittings because you don't have the same level of skill that a medieval craftsman probably did. I understand your point about fittings lasting longer than the scabbard, but by the same token, if the fitter had a pile of fittings in front of him to match up to sheaths, he's going to make the sheath then find the fittings that are closest. Yes he may alter the sheath SLIGHTLY when REUSING FITTINGS, but if he's making NEW fittings for a NEW scabbard, he's going to fit the metal to the core, because he does it all day long, all year round, and he's refined his techniques where it's much easier for him than it was for you because you're a hobbyist. Unless you can provide some evidence to support your theory, I feel apprehensive in belaboring this discussion.
IP: Logged
|
|
|
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
